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By: - 22nd April 2003 at 20:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
single seater or twin?
is it the Su-30KI?
By: - 23rd April 2003 at 01:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
hopefully two seater.
By: - 23rd April 2003 at 04:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
she wants to buy just 4?
By: - 23rd April 2003 at 09:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting,
What are they going to pay them with? They don't have any money, and they can't get any financing from the world bank due to poor credit rating.
The four that was mentioned would be two seaters, but that means they would then be looking at around a 12-16 a/c purchase with the rest being single seaters. Enough to phase out the F-16A/B's that they are having problems with. Current figures have them at 28% combat readiness last year and falling due to lack of spares.
By: - 23rd April 2003 at 10:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Are they gonna be like the MKI/MKM?
Or is it just a basic two-seater Flanker.
TVC?Canards?
What weapons will they get?
By: - 23rd April 2003 at 12:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Probably something inexpensive. Perhaps the two seaters are similar to the Russian SU-30KN while the single seaters are probably similar to the SU-30KI. To cut costs, the two planes may be upgrades from existing low mileage airframes.
By: - 24th April 2003 at 00:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Are the single seaters going to be the Su-27SK or the Su-30KI?
By: - 24th April 2003 at 02:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is very little difference between the two. The -KI is the -SK with a refueling probe. It might have modernized radar and avionics though, at least, capable of supporting the R-77 optionally.
By: - 24th April 2003 at 15:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Russia Will Sell Indonesia 48 Combat AirplanesAs a result of a visit to Moscow of the Indonesian president Megawati Sukarnoputri, an agreement was reached on the regular purchases of Russian combat equipment by that country’s defense leadership.
Two Su-27 and two Su-35 will be sold to Indonesia as early as this year. Over the subsequent 4 years, the Indonesian military will by another 44 Russian produced combat airplanes.
Thus, Indonesia will place into service 4 squadrons of 12 Russian airplanes each. At the same time, as the Indonesian newspapers are reporting, the multibillion ((dollar)) contract will be paid for only partly with hard currency. The remaining part of the payment will be in the form of traditionally exported Indonesian products: rubber, tea, coffee and palm oil.
It is recalled that several years ago, Indonesia already had tried to conclude a similar trade deal with Russian arms exporters, but it was refused.
Western media pay attention to the political side of what is happening. Indonesia obtained a huge amount of Russian arms only after it wasn't able to win removal of the embargo for arms deliveries from Washington which has been active for as long as 12 years in connection with the violation of human rights in the country. At the same time, the Indonesian armed forces have been using up to now exclusively American weapons.
As the commander of the country's air force, Chapi Hakhim ((phonetic)) announced in Jakarta, if someone is horrified by a similar deal, then it has to be said that it was not spontaneously concluded.
Source: 24.04.03, NTV
By: - 24th April 2003 at 16:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I thought Indonesia was going with the Su-30! What is this talk about the Su-27 and Su-35?? I wonder what example Indonesia is going to choose. I think One squadron of Su-27s, One squadron of Su-30s, and two squadrons of Su-35 would be great for Indonesia's air force.
By: - 24th April 2003 at 23:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by J33Nelson
I thought Indonesia was going with the Su-30! What is this talk about the Su-27 and Su-35?? I wonder what example Indonesia is going to choose. I think One squadron of Su-27s, One squadron of Su-30s, and two squadrons of Su-35 would be great for Indonesia's air force.
Since the Su-35 is markedly more capable than the baseline Su-27, it would seem more logical to purchase just the Su-35UB. Then you get reduced maintenance costs due to differing engine or avionics fits, and you get a much more capable all-around platform. It is possible that the initial purchase of 2 Su-27s and 2 Su-35s will be two refurbished and upgraded aircraft, and two former Sukhoi refurbished testbeds, brought to the same standard. Then you also get the benefit of a twin-seat aircraft, for air-to-ground roles, but one which can operate in the air-to-air role just as effectively as a single seater.
By: - 24th April 2003 at 23:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One more thought-an advertised "Su-30" purchase could involve the Su-30KI (an upgraded aircraft to near-Su-35 standard possibly), the Su-30MK, Su-30MKI/MKK, the Su-35, or even the Su-33UB adapted for a land-based role. All are technically Su-30-series aircraft.
By: - 25th April 2003 at 02:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You can't sell SU-30MKK and SU-35UB to any other country other than China as that would be in breach of an agreement made between Sukhoi, IAPO and KnAAPO.
In that agreement, KnAAPO makes and sells the single seaters, IAPO makes and sells the dual seaters.
It is only because of the Chinese strictly wanted it so (despite Sukhoi's initial objections) that KnAAPO was assigned to do dual seaters, but only, and only for the Chinese market. Both the SU-30MKK and the SU-35UB are dual seaters made by KnAAPO and it is quite clear who the target market of the SU-35UB is, even though that country has yet to acquire it. (Basically the SU-35UB airframe is the MKK with canards)
Indonesia or anyone else can still obtain the single seater SU-35/37 from KnAAPO.
Indonesia's dual seaters have to come out from IAPO, which means either something like the SU-30KN or the SU-30MK (with TVC and canards).
If SU-35UB ends up competiting in the market against SU-30MK, boy, there will be a lot of legal fireworks and dirty laundry airing between the two companies of IAPO and KnAAPO. This does give you a problem if a country buys SU-35s, what will they use as a trainer? Thus you will have to buy upgraded SU-27UBKs (maybe to UBM standard) or SU-30MKs with dual flight controls (both MKK and MKI has dual flight controls actually) from IAPO.
Sukhoi also needs to spread out the work assignments in order to keep as many Russian workers employed.
By: - 25th April 2003 at 05:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So which ones will their Su-30s be?
The Su-30KN or Su-30MK
By: - 25th April 2003 at 06:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If you are a poor nation, probably a -KN type of aircraft. If you are rich, then an -MK type of aircraft. If it's a -KN, you merely need to convert an existing airframe, which can really lower the price down. How much was the purchase anyway? I knew it included two helicopters.
When I mean -KN type, I don't exactly like the SU-30KN, but something quite similar and sharing many of its components. Basically a multirole SU-27UB with a refueling probe, multirole and R-77 capability, plus a few nice perks in avionics. SU-30KI would be the same except for the single seat.
A simpler plane like that would also be easier to maintain.
Hmm, looking at the price again, 100 to 120 million dollars for four planes, I think we maybe looking at brand new aircraft and can't rule out canards and TVC.
By: - 25th April 2003 at 11:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Originally posted by crobato
[B]You can't sell SU-30MKK and SU-35UB to any other country other than China as that would be in breach of an agreement made between Sukhoi, IAPO and KnAAPO.
You sre about the Su-35UB? The Su-35UB was the Russian competitor in the Korean F-X competition.
By: - 25th April 2003 at 13:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The fighter I know on the F-X competition was the single seater SU-35.
By: - 25th April 2003 at 15:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Looks like Indonesia is on a big Russian military spending spree. S-300, Tor-M1, and Igla SAMs, assault rifles, helicopters, APCs, and fighter aircraft. All this equipment would be a huge improvement to Indonesia's military.
"Jakarta has recently purchased Russian weapons, including 10,000 Kalashnikov assault rifles, a squadron of Mil-2 naval helicopters and a dozen BTR-80A amphibious carriers.
Indonesia's air force is also considering purchasing several squadrons of Sukhoi Su-27 interceptors, long-range S-300 missiles and shorter-range systems such as the SA-15 Gauntlet or shoulder-fired Igla, The Associated Press reported. "But there is a big difference between our wishes and reality," Urip said.
Earlier this month, it was reported that Indonesia plans to set up a trade agreement with Russia to swap 18 commodities for planes and helicopters in September this year. According to Indonesian officials quoted by Reuters, Indonesia will trade four Su-30 fighter jets and four NI helicopters, along with spare parts, for goods including crude palm oil, tea and coffee. The deal, worth $150 million to $175 million, is to be discussed during Megawati's visit and is expected to be implemented in September."
Source : http://www.russiajournal.com/news/cnews-article.shtml?nd=37051
By: - 25th April 2003 at 15:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"The fighter I know on the F-X competition was the single seater SU-35."
According to this article it sounds like the single seater and the two seater were pitched to South Korea.
"After the Seoul International Air Show is over late in October, the South Korean Defense Ministry is expected to officially announce the so-called "shortened list" of contenders, which will comprise two aircraft out of the four, competing for the tender: the US F-15E, the West-European Eurofighter, the French Rafale and the Russian Su-35. According to unofficial information, the F-15E and the Su-35 are most likely to join the final list, as far as both the Eurofighter and Rafale are too costly and, besides, these are just experimental, not series-produced fighters, as against two other competitors.
In the words of Yemeliyanov, the Su-35 is offered in two versions: a single-seat and a two-seat one. The aicraft has received positive comments from the South-Korean specialists, Air Force and a number of the country's political leaders. In certain terms of characteristics it is superior to its main rival, and is considerably cheeper. However, South Korea's final decision on the tender may be strongly dependent on the country' traditional orientation towards the USA. "
By: - 26th April 2003 at 02:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sukhoi and IAPO already had a big tiff over KnAAPO building two seaters for anyone else except China as that goes against the grain of their legal agreements. Sukhoi even tried to move the 2nd order of SU-30MKK to IAPO, causing a major argument over the three companies. Russian companies are quite desperate to get any order to keep their workers and families fed; changing assignments on the order of two 956EM destroyers alone have caused a major scandal.
It is likely that Sukhoi will give any lip service to get any order first, then work out the actual assignments later. Hypothetically assuming Sukhoi got the order, assigning the dual seaters to KnAAPO can force IAPO to lodge a major complaint. Sukhoi is tends to favor IAPO (KnAAPO is such a bad ass; it sued Sukhoi to prevent SU-30MKK contract money to be spent on PAK-FA) It's likely IAPO builds SU-30MKs and Sukhoi will neatly relabel them as "SU-35UB".
***
Anyway, Indonesian order is now confirmed.
2 SU-27s for 32 million each
2 SU-30MK for 41 million
2 MI-35 Hind for 21 million.
Given the price on the SU-30, I bet it's the canard/TVC form.
Posts: 396
By: ad0nis - 22nd April 2003 at 20:31
Indonesian leader calls for new trade ties with Russia
MOSCOW, April 22 (AFP) - 15:28 GMT - Indonesian President Megawati Sukarnoputri called for a new beginning in relations with Russia on Tuesday, vowing to boost trade that amounted to just 170 million dollars (156 million euros) last year.
"Whether we like it or not, we have to start from the beginning if we want to realize our hopes and aspirations," Megawati said in a speech to a Russian-Indonesian business forum in Moscow, quoted by RIA-Novosti news agency.
Worth 139 million dollars, Indonesian exports to Russia last year more than quadrupled Russia's 31 million dollars of exports to Indonesia.
Over the past five years total bilateral trade has averaged just 120 million dollars, according to Russia's Kommersant business daily.
Megawati, who arrived in the Russian capital on Sunday for a five-day visit, told the forum that "one of the main goals of my visit is the desire to help further direct contact between our two countries in the business sphere".
"Our relations have gone through periods of ups and downs," she said, saying bilateral trade had never fully recovered after the 1997-1998 Asian financial crisis and Russia's 1998 financial meltdown.
Megawati's visit to Moscow is the first by an Indonesian leader since former dictator Suharto visited in 1989. Her father, former president Sukarno, built close ties with Russia in the 1950s.
The Indonesian leader's visit to Russia comes at a time when relations with the United States are chilled over the war in Iraq, and while Indonesia is still subject to a four-year-old US arms embargo.
Megawati signed an arms agreement with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday amid media reports that she was expected to seal the purchase of four Russian-made Sukhoi fighter planes worth between 100 and 120 million dollars.
After receiving an honorary degree from Russia's top state foreign policy university on Tuesday, Megawati toured Sukhoi's research centre and airfield outside Moscow and witnessed a test flight of the Russian aerospace firm's SU-27 fighter jet, Interfax reported.
Indonesia came close to buying four SU-30 fighter jets in the mid-1990s -- but the deal was put off after Asia's 1998 financial collapse.
"Today Indonesia would like to get back to those plans," Sukhoi spokesman Yury Chervakov told Interfax.
Since 1999 Indonesia has been under a US arms embargo which Washington refuses to lift until the country comes clean on its military's backing of militia violence in East Timor that year.
Megawati told the forum she would "do all possible to increase ties between our countries -- in terms of economy, trade, military technology and investment", according to ITAR-TASS news agency.
Megawati's trade minister, Rini Suwandi, told the forum that clinching the fighter jet deal "will be a great success for our countries", adding that Russia's government arms trade agency Rosoboronexport and Indonesia's Bulok would handle the deal.
The minister said she expected trade between the two countries to double by next year, ITAR-TASS said
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/afp/defense/030422152859.9adzqr9y.html