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By: - 7th December 2008 at 20:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
460sdn ATC Dunstable had a Blackburn Firebrand in 1947. I have a photo of this which was used in a Flypast artical some years ago. I dont know its serial numberof this aircraft. Their are other photos in the local paper at the time. I must try to see if the original's still survive in the archives in Luton Museum. They have quite a few aircraft photos, some i identifided of them some 5 years ago for them.
Dave
By: - 8th December 2008 at 08:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Note to any budding historian/authors out there:
Has anyone created and maintained a full list of ATC airframes over the life of the Corps?
Avion ancien has raised an interesting question here, as on several occasions when I have been trying to trace aircraft, between leaving the RAF and joining a museum in many cases, there exists a void in the recorded history usually involving an ATC unit.
By: - 8th December 2008 at 09:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Has anyone created and maintained a full list of ATC airframes over the life of the Corps?
It was Roy Bonser who had the two-part article in FlyPast on this subject. Part 2 was in the February, 2003 issue (so assume part 1 was in the January issue). Haven't found my copies out yet and can't remember what level of detail Roy went into, but I'm sure it was more than 'just' a list/photos of airframes that went to ATC Squadrons.
Roger Smith.
By: - 8th December 2008 at 10:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think I posted this story before but it seems relevant to this thread so I apologise to anyone who has read it already.
During WW2 my grandfather decided to evacuate the family from London and rented a cottage at Appledore in Kent. My father would have been a teenager at the time and said he went to an ATC squadron at Ashford, which I think he said was based in a school, and they had a Hawker Nimrod. He reckoned they had the complete airframe although it was dismantled with the wings stored along one wall.
What intrigues me is that the Nimrod that is now flying was apparently discovered on a rubbish tip at Ashford and I wondered if it was the same airframe. It does seem possible that at some point the council took it away for the ATC and years later it was unearthed again.
I can't get any further details as my dad passed away over 10 years ago but if anyone has any further information it would be good to hear it.
By: - 8th December 2008 at 10:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Roger,
I will check this out. I don't think there has been an exhaustive list yet, as a couple of Hunter cockpits I can name still have their ATC/CCF histories clouded in mystery.
By: - 8th December 2008 at 11:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For what it's worth, 131 Sqn had a Comper Swift (G-AC**) in Newcastle during the war years which I think still exists somewhere, and also a Kestrel engine,origin unknown, when I was with them 1955-60,
Jim
By: - 8th December 2008 at 11:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...and the Mk XII somewhere in the Birmingham area?
By: - 8th December 2008 at 17:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dh115 at 115 ATC
Bonjour Avion!
Concerning ATC airframes: when I was in 115 Sqd ATC at RAF Peterborough (Westwood airfield), we had delivered to us in November 1963 Vampire T11
XE887 (DH115 - quite a fitting fate at 115 Sqd!).
I recall that it had Cranwell blue bands instead of the usual yellow training bands on the booms, but I have not found any reference to it having served at Cranwell. Maybe someone can advise.
I read that it had the maintenance serial 7824M allocated, but it did not carry it while I knew it.
It stood outside the Sqd hut for some years. I last heard of it being broken up at Beverley in 1973.
Anyone know its unit service?
Since 2004, 115 Sqd have had Canberra TT18 WK127 cockpit, after it was with 2484 ATC at Bassingbourn for a while.
http://www.bywat.co.uk/wk127.html
By: - 8th December 2008 at 21:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for all the posts. They are very interesting but I have to confess that my particular interest is in "what happened to them" rather than "where have they been". During WW2 (and subsequently) many very interesting airframes were allocated to ATC squadrons, only to disappear off the radar in the 1940s or the 1950s (or, in some rare cases, the early 1960s). Having regard to the prevalence of bureaucracy in post war Britain, it seems almost impossible to conceive that the allocation of airframes to ATC squadrons alone was recorded and that, thereafter, the powers that be took no interest in and nor monitored either the life or the fate of these airframes. However that might have been the case. But I'd be grateful to hear from those who have the actual knowledge that I do not!
By: - 9th December 2008 at 09:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ATC Instructional Airframes
In 1967 or thereabouts a book called "Challenge in the Air" was published, a history of the ATC written by Brian Philpot. In the back one of the appendices contained a list of instructional airframes with ATC Squadrons known at that time.
My own Squadron had a Spitfire XVI from 1952 to 1967 namely TE184
(G-MXVI) now with the G2 Trust. It was replaced in 1967 with Meteor NF14 WS726 which is still with us and a few years ago I project led a restoration to its original 25 Sqn colour scheme. All such costs had to be borne by the Squadron as there is no financial funds from the MOD/Air Cadets to cover the cost.
The restoration as one can imagine was not cheap when one considers we stripped it back to bare metal, etch primer and primer and top coat being required. Not withstanding that the aircraft is still MOD property and is listed on the Squadron inventory of "public property" I am given to understand should any Squadrons aircraft fall into a serious state of disrepair then the MOD can require the airframe yto be disposed of at the Squadrons expense, though I have not seen anything official in this respect.
By: - 9th December 2008 at 09:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I recall many years ago (not saying how many! ;)) my father was the commanding officer of the NUOTC (think that's right?) at Newcastle & I used to make a nuisance of myself during school holidays climbing all over their armoured personnel carriers and 25 pounders etc. One day I spotted a fuselage with two cockpits dumped outside one of the workshops - I was told it was a Chipmunk but at that age I was still more interested in armoured vehicles :eek:, though I remember it looked a lot older to me and am sure it was fabric covered over a tublar framework. However I realised it was obviously surplus to requirements so tried my best shot at trying to persuade my Dad that it would make a good garden feature :D I failed, but recall that it had come from a local ATC unit who wanted rid of it but didn’t know how to go about disposing of it officially so they had dumped it on my father's unit - who didn’t want it either. It was there fore a few weeks and then was simply put out with the dustbins and the council waste services came to pick it up :( Wonder how many other ATC toys ended up on the tip?
By: - 9th December 2008 at 18:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In 1967 or thereabouts a book called "Challenge in the Air" was published, a history of the ATC written by Brian Philpot. In the back one of the appendices contained a list of instructional airframes with ATC Squadrons known at that time.
Does anyone have a copy of this book in order to say, in greater detail, what is contained in the appendices to it?
By: - 9th December 2008 at 20:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hello
Listed below is a quick list from our UK Serials site, it is by no means complete list but it is a start anyway
WA215 Vampire FB5 to No.138 ATC Sqn, Nottingham as 7598M 20/01/1959, perished Syerston mid 1960's
WA236 Vampire FB5 to No.2324 ATC Sqn, Chigwell, Essex for G/I as 7660M 04/08/1960, broken up as spares 25/07/1963 remains scrapped
WA450 Vampire FB5 to No.1349 ATC Sqn, Woking as 7634M 28/04/1960, then to No.323 ATC Sqn Ewell, Surrey 1970, to Bicester dump by 04/1973, fate?
WA577 Sycamore Mk.3 to No.492 ATC Sqn Solihull, then to No.493 ATC Sqn Kings Heath 23/02/1978, sold 03/09/1980 to NEAM Sunderland, Tyne & Wear arriving there for display 09/12/1980
WA697 Meteor T7 to No.156 ATC Sqn, Kidderminster as 7609M 17/08/1959, to Catterick Fire School 14/12/1967, perished 1978
WB758 Chipmunk T10 to No.2030 ATC Sqn Elmdon & Yardley ATC Sqn, Birmingham for G/I as 7729M 04/09/196, sold 20/10/1972 to Torbay Air Museum, privately owned, Torquay area, Devon
WD293 Chipmunk T10 to No.3 AEF, Bristol for G/I as 7645M, to No.2308 ATC Sqn, Cwmbran, Wales 30/07/1974, reduced to PAX, to ATC Ely, Cardiff, Vale of Glamorgan, Wales
WD318 Chipmunk T10 PAX No.145 ATC Sqn, Timperley, Trafford, Manchester
WD351 Chipmunk T10 to No.1936 ATC Sqn, Newton, broken up for spares 21/05/1
WD370 Chipmunk T10 PAX to No.225 ATC Sqn, Brighton, Brighton and Hove
WD931 Canberra B2 (C) to No.425 ATC Sqn, Aldridge, Staffs from 1978, then to storage at RAF Museum, Cosford, Shropshire
WF825 Meteor T7 to Lyneham ATC Sqn, stored Yatesbury, Wiltshire
WG418 Chipmunk T10 PAX to No.1940 ATC Sqn, Levenshulme, Manchester
WG462 Chipmunk T10 to No.188 ATC Sqn Ipswich, scrapped 1960's
WH132 Meteor T7 to No.276 ATC Sqn, Chelmsford
WJ721 Canberra TT18 (C) privately owned, on loan to 2405 ATC Sqn, Gairlock, Scotland
WK576 Chipmunk T10 PAX to 8357M at 1206 ATC Sqn, Lichfield
WK584 Chipmunk T10 PAX at 2008 ATC Sqn, Bawtry
WL505 Vampire FB9 to No.320F ATC Sqn for G/I, to G-FBIX 24/07/1991, Bournemouth-Hurn, Dorset
WP845 Chipmunk T10 PAX at St Athan, to No.1329 ATC Sqn 30/12/1974, stored Bruntingthorpe area, Leicestershire
WP863 Chipmunk T10 PAX, to 8360M, to 1304 ATC Sqn, Chippenham, then to 2293 ATC Sqn, Marlborough. Pres. Boscombe Down Museum, Wiltshire
WS736 Meteor NF14 to 1855 ATC Sqn, Royton, Manchester
WT205 Canberra B15 (C) ex No.2341 ATC Sqn Eastwood, pres RAF Manston History Museum, Manston, Kent
WT507 Canberra PR7 (C) to No.384 ATC Sqn, Mansfield 29/03/1982.
WT520 Canberra PR7 (C) to No.967 ATC Sqn, Warton
WT684 Hunter F1 to No.381 ATC Sqn, Reading. (C) pres Lavendon, Buckinghamshire
WV332 Hunter T68 (Original Cockpit) pres 1254 ATC Sqn, Godaming, Surrey/Tangmere Museum, West Sussex"
WZ416 Vampire T11 to No.2203 ATC Sqn, Hatfield, then to BAe Apprentice School, Astwick Manor and broken up and scrapped
XD435 Vampire T11 to No.480 ATC Sqn, Studley, Birmingham during 1981
XD453 Vampire T11 to No.1010 ATC Sqn, Old Sarum as 7890M, to No.58 ATC Sqn, Harrogate 1988, but loaned to Yorkshire Air Museum, scrapped Millom, Cumbria 1997
XD511 Vampire T11 to No.221 ATC Sqn, Gorleston, Norfolk as 7814M, scrapped during 1984
XE935 Vampire T11 to No.1066 ATC Sqn, Hitchin Herts, to Sywell 31/01/1982, preserved AeroVenture, Doncaster
XE982 Vampire T11 to No.124 ATC Sqn, Hereford as 7564M, sold 04/1989, preserved Weston, Co. Kildare, Eire
XE998 Vampire T11 to No.723 ATC Sqn, Wigan, preserved Southampton Museum, Hampshire
XG325 Lightning F1 f(C) to No.1476 ATC Sqn, Rayleigh, Essex
XH298 Vampire T11 to No.2356 ATC Sqn, Duncan School, Scratby, Norfolk as 7760M 28/09/1962, to Coltishall fire dump 04/09/1971, sold as scrap 06/1976 to Bury St Edmunds scrap dealer
XH312 Vampire T11 to No.2056 ATC Sqn, Knutsford, Cheshire, derelict Dodleston, Cheshire
XH318 Vampire T11 to No.2358 ATC Sqn, Ferndown Schoole, Poole as 7761M 01/10/1962, to No.424 ATC Sqn, Southampton, stored Sholing area, Hampshire
XH358 Vampire T11 to No.2 Overseas ATC Sqn, Seletar, Singapore as 7763M, last noted Seletar 1969
XH767 Javelin FAW9 to No.187 ATC Sqn, Worcester as 7955M 10/07/1967, preserved, Elvington, Yorkshire
XJ476 Sea Vixen FAW1 (C) to No.424 ATC Sqn, Southampton, then to Boscombe Down Museum
XJ723 Whirlwind HAR10 to No.2288 Sqn ATC Sqn, Montrose, Angus, Scotland, during 2007 it was transported to Newcastle University for restoration during 12/2006.
XK629 Vampire T11 to No.328 ATC Sqn, Kingston. Scrapped 1970's
XL735 Skeeter AOP12 to No.2433 ATC Sqn, Manston 04/1976, last noted privately owned Tattershall Thorpe, Lincolnshire
XL840 Whirlwind HAS7 to Fleetwood Sea Scouts during 1976, to No.177 ATC Sqn, Squires Gate, Blackpool 30/04/1978, to Nene Valley Aviation Museum, Sywell 20/03/1982, then to Bawtry - Paintball, Doncaster 2000
XM472 Jet Provost T3A (C) to 9051M at Sealand. ATC Sqn, Radcliffe, Manchester
XM474 Jet Provost T3 (C) to 1940 ATC Sqn, Levenshulme, Manchester
XN466 Jet Provost T3A (C) 1005 ATC Sqn, Radcliffe, Manchester, then to No.184 ATCSqn, Mauldeth Road West, Manchester during 2007
XN550 Jet Provost T3 (C) to 730 ATC Sqn, Truro, Cornwall. To Watson Scrap Yard, Stone, scr. 11/2004
XP515 Gnat T1 to 1331 ATC Sqn, Wattisham/Stowmarket 19/08/1981. To Otterburn Ranges 09/12/1985, destroyed 1995.
XP542 Gnat T1 to No.424 ATC Sqn, Southampton, Hampshire
XS181 Jet Provost T4 to 1084 ATC Sqn, but located at Bruntingthorpe
XW560 Jaguar S to No.1343 ATC Sqn, East Grinstead, West Sussex, to Boscombe Down Museum during 2004
XX520 Bulldog T1 to 172 ATC Sqn, Eastern Road, Haywards Heath, West Sussex
XX637 Bulldog T1 to 2175 ATC Sqn Glasgow, Scotland as 'XX530'
XX665 Bulldog T1 to No.2409 ATC Sqn, Halton, Buckinghamshire
XZ131 Harrier GR3 (C) 2156 ATC Sqn, Brierley Hill, Dudley, West Midlands
XZ990 Harrier GR3 f(C) was reported to be at 1220 ATC Sqn, March, Cambridgeshire, fate unknown
ZE556 Viking T1 BGA3031, (C) to 1359 ATC Sqn, TA Centre, Broadgate, Beeston, Notts
ZJ503 Jindivik 900 to 2445 ATC Sqn, Llanbedr, Wales
By: - 9th December 2008 at 23:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi
I know No7 ADCC Squadron or as it is now called 7f City of Liverpool Squadron used to have a Hawker Hardy when they were in Heath Rd School in the 40s. ;);)
By: - 10th December 2008 at 00:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mick- I will have to give you some updates for that list when I get a minute!
By: - 10th December 2008 at 08:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its a shame that those single seat Vampires didn't make it into museums!
By: - 10th December 2008 at 09:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Vampire FB.5 VV217 was an air cadet airframe at Bury St Edmunds from retirement in the early 1960's until 1991 when it was disposed of and moved on loan to the North East Aircraft Museum
My understanding also is that officially the airframes are parented by RAF stations and are officially on MOD charge. Their disposal is controlled by the Disposal Sales Agency or whatever its current name is, who disopsed of VV217 & WA577 by tender. I remember there being quite a fuss when the ATC at Lyneham "loaned" their Meteor T.7 to a new museum at Monkton Farleigh (near Bath).
As it was now out of the care of the RAF it was sold by the MOD by private treaty and a few wrists were slapped. So I would imagine that most current airframes have been on the official inventory since the late 1980's.
By: - 10th December 2008 at 12:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Around 1968 1312 Sqdn at Southend acquired Vampire (T11 ?) WZ458 which was kept near Southend Light Aviation Centre at the end of the old BKS hangar. It gradually fell into disrepair and as far as I know was probably scrapped sometime in the 80's. To be fair it must have been an uphill task from the start trying to maintain a Vampire outside with little funding or equipment and for that reason they probably weren't the most suitable aircraft fpr an ATC unit.
By: - 10th December 2008 at 13:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There was a very exhaustive list published by Air Britain over 30 years ago. I have a copy (in the loft!). It went back to the origins of the ATC during WW2 and listed a lot of interesting a/c including such gems as a DH Don and several pre-war light aircraft including a Gipsy Moth in a school in East London (Hackney or Bow IIRC).
I'll see if I can dig out the list.
By: - 10th December 2008 at 18:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mick, that list is highly impressive. Maybe it's time for someone to take on the task of updating and, as necessary, revising the list to which G-ORDY refers.
Thunderbird167, your information is very helpful. Is it based upon your understanding of the system as it is now and has been of recent times or has the same system operated in the decades since WW2? If the latter, my researches seem to suggest that it must now be policed more rigoursely than was the case in the past, particularly in the 1940s and 1950s. I'll make appropriate enquiries, through the RAF Museum in the first place.
G-ORDY, I have to confess that I was unaware of the AB list. I'll send you a PM on the subject.
Oh, and N.Wotherspoon, if you can be persuaded to be a little less coy about your age someone might be able to identify the mystery fuselage dumped on your father at the NUOTC! Wouldn't you like to put that one to rest?
Posts: 5,937
By: avion ancien - 7th December 2008 at 18:06
Am I correct in believing that neither the MOD, the RAF nor any other government body maintains or maintained records of the retention and, more particularly, disposal by ATC squadrons of airframes allocated to them for instructional or similar purposes? It appears that records of such allocations to ATC squadrons exist - i.e. serial, type, squadron, date and location - having regard to the numerous published references to such information, whereas I have been able to trace little information - evidently derived from official sources - which postdates the airframe allocations. Is it the case that once the airframes had been delivered to ATC squadrons, the authorities either lost interest in or washed their hands of them? Equally is it the case that the authorities neither were obliged to nor did police the condition in which the airframes were maintained or their eventual destruction or other means of disposal? Maybe other forum members' researches have revealed information about this subject. Alternatively those who have been involved in the ATC movement may have personal experience. Furthermore there may not have been a uniform appoach adopted down the years, so that, for example, the situation during WW2 and the 1940/50s differed from that in the 1960/70s. I'd be grateful for contributions on these issues.