By: EELightning
- 4th June 2013 at 23:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not true. Whilst the IN's FRS51s were based on the RN's FRS1s, they were all new build for the Indian Navy. All surviving RN FRS1s (ie those not crashed or otherwise lost) were upgraded to FA2 standard in the 90s along with a batch of new builds. The only Harriers sold second hand to the IN were a pair of ex RN T4Ns in the early 2000s. The only real difference between the FRS1 and the FRS51 was that the latter were fitted to fire the Magic AAM instead of the Sidewinder. The only survivng FRS1 (at the FAA Museum) is in fact a hybrid, using the nose of a Shar shot down over the Adriatic and the fuselage/wings etc of a GR3.
I remember now, yes. Thank you for the correction, it was a long time ago when I followed that. I have a recent report (AFM?) about the IN FRS-51s and what they plan to do with them for the future, I think it's worth me finding it out and posting a few snippets of information, a great read, as is anything to do with Harrier. :)
By: EELightning
- 5th June 2013 at 09:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know they carried them but don't recall any ever being fired in anger.
All A/A kills were claimed by Shars during The Falklands, GR3s were primarily used for A/G and recce. I love the GR3, my favourite Mark of the Harrier. :)
No weapons on board, apart from the Cannons, but love the RAF Harrier GR3 in 'Norway' camo!
By: inkworm
- 5th June 2013 at 14:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All A/A kills were claimed by Shars during The Falklands, GR3s were primarily used for A/G and recce. I love the GR3, my favourite Mark of the Harrier. :)
No weapons on board, apart from the Cannons, but love the RAF Harrier GR3 in 'Norway' camo!
Always preferred the FRS1 but the GR3 comes a close second. Never been too keen on the Norway camo but did like the GR3s with the cream underside.
By: giganick1
- 5th June 2013 at 14:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think it would depend on which British pilots, FAA or RAF. Lieutenant Nick Richardson RN and most certainly the very experienced Commander Henry Mitchell RN would have considered the FA2 a very capable BVR Interceptor and Fighter, for quite a time it was also considered by many others to be highly effective, some even regarded it to being the best BVR Fighter in Europe for a time also. Commander Ade Orchard RN was another Harrier pilot that held the FA2's BVR capabilities in high regard too.
IIRC the radar in Typhoon is based on the radar of the FA2?
By: Sens
- 6th June 2013 at 08:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It was said that it was used in the Argentine war...known as VIFFING
In training against French fighter before goeing to the Falklands. It means a "let him pass maneuver", because it allows a fast decelleration without the visual give away from an air-brake. A pursuer will overtake you and can do nothing about that in time. There was no situation at the Falklands to use it.
By: EELightning
- 6th June 2013 at 08:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IIRC the radar in Typhoon is based on the radar of the FA2?
The mechanically scanned Captor-M, yes. There's a bit of a family tree thing going on with the Captor radar. Blue Vixen (FA2), developed from the Ferranti Blue Fox (FRS-1), AMSAR, Bright Adder, CAESER, Captor-M, Captor-E, Radar-1, Radar-2, Radar-3, (Captor-E Radar-3 based on Bright Adder)... It's quite astonishing where it all traces back to.
By: TEEJ
- 6th June 2013 at 13:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
VIFFing during the Falklands was a media creation and it still persists to this day. Sharkey Ward cleared up the issue.
AVM Johnson: During the campaign I read newspaper reports about the Harrier's VIFFing tactic, and some correspondents claimed that if you saw an enemy fighter astern you could VIFF vertically upwards or downwards, and if the enemy helpfully carried straight ahead you easily manoeuvred into a good attacking position. Was this tactic used in the Falklands?
Cdr Ward: No.
Although the Harrier is capable of VIFFing it is not a good combat tactic because you lose a lot of energy. The Harrier's success was due to its great manoeuvrability and our sound training.
From. 'The Story of Air Fighting Air Vice Marshal J.E.`Johnnie'Johnson CB,CBE,DSO and two Bars, DFC and Bar ISBN 0-09-950330-1'
By: EELightning
- 6th June 2013 at 16:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One of the many, but still few, things I admire Sharkey for.
There were lots of stories told by the British side to help make the Argentinians shake in their boots. The one that I remember most, not military aviation related but hey: Propaganda was done to make out the Gurkhas were beyond human, showed no remorse to their prisoners of war, were cannibals, raped anything with a pulse, resorted to cannibalism especially to captured enemy troops if they were unlucky enough to survive, knew extreme methods to torture, maul, skin... basically cared for nothing but their own satisfaction. As a result, the Argies were sh*t scared of fighting the Gurkhas and decided to surrender at the first opportunity, to the dissatisfaction of the Gurkhas - which were later told by a British officer that; 'It's a greater victory knowing your enemy surrendered because they didn't want to face you without firing a single bullet, than losing some of our own and winning!'. Of course, they took this on board and of course they're nothing like the propaganda made them out to be.
By: Smurph
- 15th June 2013 at 21:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I am amazed at the advances that have been made in weapons capacity since.GR3 in the early 70's. And no doubt more than 20mins sortie time without a touring tank :cool:
New
Posts: 689
By: F-18Growler
- 16th June 2013 at 20:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
AV-8 Harrier firing the rocket launchers. What an amazing load-out for the Harrier. ;)
By: Fedaykin
- 21st June 2013 at 19:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I dunno, that Gurkha who beheaded that Taliban chap a few years back was pretty, er, ruthless. Can't say I was upset about it though.
Reminds me of this video footage of an officer explaining to a group of disappointed Gurkha's that the Argentines had surrendered, the Gurkha's never actually saw combat with Argentine soldiers the closest being at the receiving end of some 155mm. Not that you would think that if you read some of the web articles that come out of Argentina, surprising the amount of stories about combat with blood crazed Gurkha's and SAS that come up! It has slipped into the national conciousness of Argentina along with the myth that they damaged HMS Invincible.
Posts: 2,631
By: EELightning - 4th June 2013 at 23:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I remember now, yes. Thank you for the correction, it was a long time ago when I followed that. I have a recent report (AFM?) about the IN FRS-51s and what they plan to do with them for the future, I think it's worth me finding it out and posting a few snippets of information, a great read, as is anything to do with Harrier. :)Posts: 1,259
By: inkworm - 5th June 2013 at 09:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here's a nice GR3 with Sidewinder rails
[ATTACH=CONFIG]217277[/ATTACH]
I know they carried them but don't recall any ever being fired in anger.
Posts: 2,631
By: EELightning - 5th June 2013 at 09:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All A/A kills were claimed by Shars during The Falklands, GR3s were primarily used for A/G and recce. I love the GR3, my favourite Mark of the Harrier. :)No weapons on board, apart from the Cannons, but love the RAF Harrier GR3 in 'Norway' camo!
Posts: 1,259
By: inkworm - 5th June 2013 at 14:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Always preferred the FRS1 but the GR3 comes a close second. Never been too keen on the Norway camo but did like the GR3s with the cream underside.
Posts: 387
By: giganick1 - 5th June 2013 at 14:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IIRC the radar in Typhoon is based on the radar of the FA2?
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 6th June 2013 at 08:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In training against French fighter before goeing to the Falklands. It means a "let him pass maneuver", because it allows a fast decelleration without the visual give away from an air-brake. A pursuer will overtake you and can do nothing about that in time. There was no situation at the Falklands to use it.
Posts: 2,631
By: EELightning - 6th June 2013 at 08:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The mechanically scanned Captor-M, yes. There's a bit of a family tree thing going on with the Captor radar. Blue Vixen (FA2), developed from the Ferranti Blue Fox (FRS-1), AMSAR, Bright Adder, CAESER, Captor-M, Captor-E, Radar-1, Radar-2, Radar-3, (Captor-E Radar-3 based on Bright Adder)... It's quite astonishing where it all traces back to.Posts: 2,318
By: TEEJ - 6th June 2013 at 13:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
VIFFing during the Falklands was a media creation and it still persists to this day. Sharkey Ward cleared up the issue.
From. 'The Story of Air Fighting Air Vice Marshal J.E.`Johnnie'Johnson CB,CBE,DSO and two Bars, DFC and Bar ISBN 0-09-950330-1'
Posts: 2,631
By: EELightning - 6th June 2013 at 16:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One of the many, but still few, things I admire Sharkey for.
There were lots of stories told by the British side to help make the Argentinians shake in their boots. The one that I remember most, not military aviation related but hey: Propaganda was done to make out the Gurkhas were beyond human, showed no remorse to their prisoners of war, were cannibals, raped anything with a pulse, resorted to cannibalism especially to captured enemy troops if they were unlucky enough to survive, knew extreme methods to torture, maul, skin... basically cared for nothing but their own satisfaction. As a result, the Argies were sh*t scared of fighting the Gurkhas and decided to surrender at the first opportunity, to the dissatisfaction of the Gurkhas - which were later told by a British officer that; 'It's a greater victory knowing your enemy surrendered because they didn't want to face you without firing a single bullet, than losing some of our own and winning!'. Of course, they took this on board and of course they're nothing like the propaganda made them out to be.
Posts: 281
By: DavidSubishi - 6th June 2013 at 21:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I dunno, that Gurkha who beheaded that Taliban chap a few years back was pretty, er, ruthless. Can't say I was upset about it though.
Posts: 1
By: Smurph - 15th June 2013 at 21:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I am amazed at the advances that have been made in weapons capacity since.GR3 in the early 70's. And no doubt more than 20mins sortie time without a touring tank :cool:
Posts: 689
By: F-18Growler - 16th June 2013 at 20:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
AV-8 Harrier firing the rocket launchers. What an amazing load-out for the Harrier. ;)
Posts: 2,631
By: EELightning - 16th June 2013 at 21:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's an RAF GR3. The British didn't use the AV-8 designation.Posts: 689
By: F-18Growler - 21st June 2013 at 19:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Posts: 5,197
By: SpudmanWP - 21st June 2013 at 19:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Model
Posts: 5,267
By: Fedaykin - 21st June 2013 at 19:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Reminds me of this video footage of an officer explaining to a group of disappointed Gurkha's that the Argentines had surrendered, the Gurkha's never actually saw combat with Argentine soldiers the closest being at the receiving end of some 155mm. Not that you would think that if you read some of the web articles that come out of Argentina, surprising the amount of stories about combat with blood crazed Gurkha's and SAS that come up! It has slipped into the national conciousness of Argentina along with the myth that they damaged HMS Invincible.
Posts: 5,267
By: Fedaykin - 21st June 2013 at 20:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Posts: 949
By: roberto_yeager - 22nd June 2013 at 00:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
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