By: Obi Wan Russell
- 19th February 2009 at 15:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Illustrious class (Victorious was one)... certainly not, as the hangar floor on Vicky was not far enough above the new full-load waterline.
It isdoubtful that one could be worked into a Colossus/Majestic either.
However... I have often wondered why the designers of Hermes' modifications felt it was a good idea to put both elevators where they would interfere with landing operations.
Surely, moving the aft elevator to the deck-edge behind the island and leaving the fore elevator on the centerline would result in more efficient, smoother, and faster launch/recovery operations.
Even if the fore elevator had to be moved a bit to the starboard to allow the port bow cat to be as long as needed, and the starboard bow cat moved to the angle (where it could be longer as well) this would be a better arrangement... especially as it would minimize wave effects on the deck-edge elevator (by moving it aft quite a bit).
I really wish the RN had done that with Hermes and at least one of the other 3.
Agreed. I wish they had been more adventurous when refitting Centaur in 56-58, if they had kept her in dock for another six months a fully angled deck could have been installed, providing a larger deck park at fly one. As it was, when operating Sea Vixens, it was only possible to park about five or six aircraft in fly 1 (were aircraft that had just landed on were taxied to) so recovery operations would have to stop at that point until those aircraft could be struck down to the hangar. Adding an angled deck sponson wouldn't have been difficult, and needn't have been as deep as that fitted to Hermes, which was also providing support for her deck edge lift and it's machinery, so something more on the lines of the lightweight structure fitted to Victorious. Going a step further a larger structure could support a steam catapult in the waist position (replacing the starboard cat). This all adds time and expense to her refit, and she was only upgraded as a stop gap for the sisxties as it was anticipate the rest of the fleet would always have one carrier in deep refit during this period (Victorious 1950-58, Eagle 1959-64, Hermes 1964-66 and Ark Royal 1967-70).
below are a couple of photo manips to illustrate my point plus a shot of Centaur in 64 to show how crowded the ship could be with large aircraft like the Vixen on deck:
By: F-18RN
- 19th February 2009 at 22:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmmmm... the Aircraft Carrier Operations section is labelled "Coming Soon"... maybe I can piece the data together from the Technical Specifications & External Payload & Airframe Configurations sections?
If it is any consolation, however, I am sure the Hornet could have launched from Vicky & Hermes with a nearly full payload :diablo:
Hey Its good to see this particular thread updated. Speaking of updated have you visited the Buccaneer website recently Bager? Part 1 of the Carrier ops section has been written.
I like the photo manips of Centaur Obi Wan. Any chance of doing one(s) showing a 'Phantomised' Victorious?
By: Obi Wan Russell
- 19th February 2009 at 23:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hey Its good to see this particular thread updated. Speaking of updated have you visited the Buccaneer website recently Bager? Part 1 of the Carrier ops section has been written.
I like the photo manips of Centaur Obi Wan. Any chance of doing one(s) showing a 'Phantomised' Victorious?
I'll get onto it! Actually when I was younger I modified an Airfix model of HMS Victorious to Phantomise it! This involved moving the forward elevator further over to starboard, adding two 199ft BS5s with Bridle catchers and water cooled JBDs, and extending the parking areas at fly three and Fly four. No computer back then so had to do these things in 3D!
By: F-18RN
- 19th February 2009 at 23:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thats Great Obi Wan I can't wait to see the results. I would envisage the Spn35 radar system that was mounted aft of Ark's island post 1970 with the 'golf ball dome'. The guns removed and replaced with extensions to the flightdeck aft of the island and oposite aft of the angle. Two BS5 catapults with bridle cathers (both on the bow) and F4K type JBDs and maybe a Hermes style deck edge lift in place of the for'd lift. But thats me.
By: Obi Wan Russell
- 20th February 2009 at 02:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well here's a quick plan of the flight deck layout of that model I modified. On the model itself I had the split JBDs of Ark Royal, but when I drew this plan a couple of years ago I gave it US style JBDs just to see how they would look:
By: EdLaw
- 20th February 2009 at 15:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Obi: Would Hermes and/or Centaur (with/without modifications) have been capable of operating Crusaders routinely? Would Crusaders have helped keep these carriers viable?
By: X07
- 20th February 2009 at 18:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This shot taken in '67 shows Victorious cross operating with the yanks who were using the very a/c Argentina would have used had they purchased the Vic in the late '60s!
By: F-18RN
- 20th February 2009 at 20:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well here's a quick plan of the flight deck layout of that model I modified. On the model itself I had the split JBDs of Ark Royal, but when I drew this plan a couple of years ago I gave it US style JBDs just to see how they would look:
Hi Obi Wan. I love the deck plan. Perhaps a before and after would be good. I've tried modifying your deck plan to add extensions to the flight deck port and starboard that cover over the areas shaded in green and add the SPN 35 radome aft of the island. If I can figure out how to master the drawing packages on my machine I'll post it. Meanwhile keep up the good work, I look forward to more.
By: Obi Wan Russell
- 21st February 2009 at 00:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Obi Wan. I love the deck plan. Perhaps a before and after would be good. I've tried modifying your deck plan to add extensions to the flight deck port and starboard that cover over the areas shaded in green and add the SPN 35 radome aft of the island. If I can figure out how to master the drawing packages on my machine I'll post it. Meanwhile keep up the good work, I look forward to more.
I left those areas free to mount at least some self defence weaponry. I plated over the forward gun positions to extend the flightdeck and increase internal volume (ie messdecks etc). I did fit a SPN 35 to my model come to think of it...
Here's the original plan view I modified, plus a speculative 'Super Victorious' type CVA based on the original model and just to round things off, a Phantomised HMS Eagle!:D
By: F-18RN
- 21st February 2009 at 10:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I left those areas free to mount at least some self defence weaponry. I plated over the forward gun positions to extend the flightdeck and increase internal volume (ie messdecks etc). I did fit a SPN 35 to my model come to think of it...
Here's the original plan view I modified, plus a speculative 'Super Victorious' type CVA based on the original model and just to round things off, a Phantomised HMS Eagle!:D
Hi Obi. Like the images, keep them coming. If you don't mind my asking where did you get the profile and plan drawings from, only I've been trawling the net for ages looking for them to do something similar to what you've done? Also do you have the plan image of Victorious post 1950 without the hanger cutaway or profile on the same scale as your modified drawing?
Lastly to anyone out there where can I find plan drawings line or filled of Phantoms, Gannets, Helos and Buccaneers (both folded and unfolded)?
By: Obi Wan Russell
- 21st February 2009 at 15:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Obi. Like the images, keep them coming. If you don't mind my asking where did you get the profile and plan drawings from, only I've been trawling the net for ages looking for them to do something similar to what you've done? Also do you have the plan image of Victorious post 1950 without the hanger cutaway or profile on the same scale as your modified drawing?
Lastly to anyone out there where can I find plan drawings line or filled of Phantoms, Gannets, Helos and Buccaneers (both folded and unfolded)?
The Victorious plan drawing was scanned from a bokk called 'Royal Navy Aircraft Carriers 1945-1990' by Leo Marriott, and the drawing is on page 73. Also there is a similar one for CVA-01 on page 79 which I have 'coloured in' and included below. Also some other pics from the archives, including Hermes, Eagle, Ark and my take on the F-35B colour scheme!
Hi Obi Wan
Thanks a lot for those. Now if only I had a paint package to hand to do what I want with all of those.
You should use Paint.net. www.getpaint.net It's free and allows for layering & easy colouring, which is great when you want to modify drawings. I used it to draw up a comparison of several carriers to scale, using stock drawings I found online:
From this thread:http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86729
By: The Doc
- 21st February 2009 at 22:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Obi Wan, your expert opinion please, Had Victorious been recomissioned then a further refit due mid to late seventies with bow ski-jump like Hermes & waist cat. Possible CAG would be 9 Buccaneers; 12 Sea Harriers; 4 Gannets & 5 ASW Sea Kings. Would she still be mechanically sound enough for service? If the RN top brass decided to surrender both the Ark & Eagle instead & kept Vicky & Hermes (no waist cat due to deck edge lift) would I be correct to assume the loses would've been avoidable in the South Atlantic? Do you know the results of the modified nose cone on the 3 1977 buccaneers & what effect would this have on operations in 1982?
PS like the drawings on Ship buckets. Any further info on the 1952 design other than the few lines in 'Navy Matters' & Tornados drawing on 'ship buckets'?
By: The Doc
- 21st February 2009 at 22:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Obi. Like the images, keep them coming. If you don't mind my asking where did you get the profile and plan drawings from, only I've been trawling the net for ages looking for them to do something similar to what you've done? Also do you have the plan image of Victorious post 1950 without the hanger cutaway or profile on the same scale as your modified drawing?
Lastly to anyone out there where can I find plan drawings line or filled of Phantoms, Gannets, Helos and Buccaneers (both folded and unfolded)?
For drawings, of ships, weapon systems & aircraft, try Shipbucket.
By: Obi Wan Russell
- 22nd February 2009 at 00:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Obi Wan, your expert opinion please, Had Victorious been recomissioned then a further refit due mid to late seventies with bow ski-jump like Hermes & waist cat. Possible CAG would be 9 Buccaneers; 12 Sea Harriers; 4 Gannets & 5 ASW Sea Kings. Would she still be mechanically sound enough for service? If the RN top brass decided to surrender both the Ark & Eagle instead & kept Vicky & Hermes (no waist cat due to deck edge lift) would I be correct to assume the loses would've been avoidable in the South Atlantic? Do you know the results of the modified nose cone on the 3 1977 buccaneers & what effect would this have on operations in 1982?
PS like the drawings on Ship buckets. Any further info on the 1952 design other than the few lines in 'Navy Matters' & Tornados drawing on 'ship buckets'?
IMHO, Victorious was mechanically and materially viable to the late 70s. When she was rebuilt in the 1950s, she was stripped down to the hangar deck, re boilered, re engined, re wired and re plumbed, essentially producing a new ship. At the time, the refit was said to have extended her life by twenty years, so 1978 becomes the OSD if no further major refits are given. Her 1972 pay off date was brought up when replacement by CVA-01 was on the cards. Considering the longevity of Hermes, I don't think it would have been difficult to keep Victorious in service into the 80s and possibly 90s, although justifying keeping her in service is another matter altogether. If possible, I'd keep the flight deck as is, two cats for the Buccs and Gannets, and the Sea Harriers can launch form the angled deck with a reasonable run. Victorious' angled deck sponson is probably to thin to support a catapult so if one is fitted there then a more substantial structure may be required. Refit costs are rising already, which is why I'd keep her as she was.
A ship of her size could comfortably operate about 30 Sea Harriers plus a sqn of helos (ASW/AEW) if the STOVL path is followed. The problem comes in keeping her active through the seventies. Assuming CVA-01 and her sisters go ahead, Victorious is relieved as a frontline carrier by 1972-74 (probable building delays with the CVAs), then she could be kept active as an ASW carrier/ training carrier, operating mostly with Sea Kings (20-30) and giving DLPs to Home based sqns like 736 and 767. The latter, with Phantoms, would only be able to do touch and go's, but these are valuable in themselves for practice. By 1980 she could embark an air group as illustrated earlier, 12 Sea Harriers for air defence, 9 Buccaneers for strike/tanking/recce, 4 Gannets for AEW (by the early 80s paerhaps a new mark with Searchwater radar instead of APS-20), and six to nine Sea Kings for ASW/SAR. As a parallell, the Indian carrier Vikrant operated as a hybrid CTOL/STOVL carrier in the mid 80s, with SHARs and Alize flying from the same deck. Hermes could likewise have been retained in CTOL form through the seventies in this manner, saving considerably on the cost of converting her to an LPH (and retaining Albion in the process, as she was in no way decrepit when paid off). In any case Victorious would have needed a major SLEP refit in the late 70s to keep her going for the 80s.
By: PMN1
- 22nd February 2009 at 01:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well here's a quick plan of the flight deck layout of that model I modified. On the model itself I had the split JBDs of Ark Royal, but when I drew this plan a couple of years ago I gave it US style JBDs just to see how they would look:
I like it, the size of the ship probably severely restricts simultaneous take off and landing anyway but this version 'future proofs' it (as much as is possible i'd say) to the increased weight of aircraft.
Posts: 519
By: Obi Wan Russell - 19th February 2009 at 15:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Agreed. I wish they had been more adventurous when refitting Centaur in 56-58, if they had kept her in dock for another six months a fully angled deck could have been installed, providing a larger deck park at fly one. As it was, when operating Sea Vixens, it was only possible to park about five or six aircraft in fly 1 (were aircraft that had just landed on were taxied to) so recovery operations would have to stop at that point until those aircraft could be struck down to the hangar. Adding an angled deck sponson wouldn't have been difficult, and needn't have been as deep as that fitted to Hermes, which was also providing support for her deck edge lift and it's machinery, so something more on the lines of the lightweight structure fitted to Victorious. Going a step further a larger structure could support a steam catapult in the waist position (replacing the starboard cat). This all adds time and expense to her refit, and she was only upgraded as a stop gap for the sisxties as it was anticipate the rest of the fleet would always have one carrier in deep refit during this period (Victorious 1950-58, Eagle 1959-64, Hermes 1964-66 and Ark Royal 1967-70).
below are a couple of photo manips to illustrate my point plus a shot of Centaur in 64 to show how crowded the ship could be with large aircraft like the Vixen on deck:
Posts: 251
By: F-18RN - 19th February 2009 at 22:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hey Its good to see this particular thread updated. Speaking of updated have you visited the Buccaneer website recently Bager? Part 1 of the Carrier ops section has been written.
I like the photo manips of Centaur Obi Wan. Any chance of doing one(s) showing a 'Phantomised' Victorious?
Posts: 519
By: Obi Wan Russell - 19th February 2009 at 23:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'll get onto it! Actually when I was younger I modified an Airfix model of HMS Victorious to Phantomise it! This involved moving the forward elevator further over to starboard, adding two 199ft BS5s with Bridle catchers and water cooled JBDs, and extending the parking areas at fly three and Fly four. No computer back then so had to do these things in 3D!
Posts: 251
By: F-18RN - 19th February 2009 at 23:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thats Great Obi Wan I can't wait to see the results. I would envisage the Spn35 radar system that was mounted aft of Ark's island post 1970 with the 'golf ball dome'. The guns removed and replaced with extensions to the flightdeck aft of the island and oposite aft of the angle. Two BS5 catapults with bridle cathers (both on the bow) and F4K type JBDs and maybe a Hermes style deck edge lift in place of the for'd lift. But thats me.
Posts: 519
By: Obi Wan Russell - 20th February 2009 at 02:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well here's a quick plan of the flight deck layout of that model I modified. On the model itself I had the split JBDs of Ark Royal, but when I drew this plan a couple of years ago I gave it US style JBDs just to see how they would look:
Posts: 1,327
By: EdLaw - 20th February 2009 at 15:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Obi: Would Hermes and/or Centaur (with/without modifications) have been capable of operating Crusaders routinely? Would Crusaders have helped keep these carriers viable?
Posts: 70
By: X07 - 20th February 2009 at 18:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
really interesting to talk about this ship, one of my favourite's, with HMS Eagle....keep on
thanks
X
Posts: 70
By: X07 - 20th February 2009 at 18:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
may be this picture answers the question
X
Posts: 251
By: F-18RN - 20th February 2009 at 20:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Obi Wan. I love the deck plan. Perhaps a before and after would be good. I've tried modifying your deck plan to add extensions to the flight deck port and starboard that cover over the areas shaded in green and add the SPN 35 radome aft of the island. If I can figure out how to master the drawing packages on my machine I'll post it. Meanwhile keep up the good work, I look forward to more.
Posts: 519
By: Obi Wan Russell - 21st February 2009 at 00:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I left those areas free to mount at least some self defence weaponry. I plated over the forward gun positions to extend the flightdeck and increase internal volume (ie messdecks etc). I did fit a SPN 35 to my model come to think of it...
Here's the original plan view I modified, plus a speculative 'Super Victorious' type CVA based on the original model and just to round things off, a Phantomised HMS Eagle!:D
Posts: 1,190
By: hawkdriver05 - 21st February 2009 at 00:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If Argentina had bought Victorious.......would have been EXSPENSIVE for them to keep her and her air group up.
Posts: 251
By: F-18RN - 21st February 2009 at 10:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Obi. Like the images, keep them coming. If you don't mind my asking where did you get the profile and plan drawings from, only I've been trawling the net for ages looking for them to do something similar to what you've done? Also do you have the plan image of Victorious post 1950 without the hanger cutaway or profile on the same scale as your modified drawing?
Lastly to anyone out there where can I find plan drawings line or filled of Phantoms, Gannets, Helos and Buccaneers (both folded and unfolded)?
Posts: 519
By: Obi Wan Russell - 21st February 2009 at 15:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Victorious plan drawing was scanned from a bokk called 'Royal Navy Aircraft Carriers 1945-1990' by Leo Marriott, and the drawing is on page 73. Also there is a similar one for CVA-01 on page 79 which I have 'coloured in' and included below. Also some other pics from the archives, including Hermes, Eagle, Ark and my take on the F-35B colour scheme!
Posts: 251
By: F-18RN - 21st February 2009 at 16:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Obi Wan
Thanks a lot for those. Now if only I had a paint package to hand to do what I want with all of those.
Posts: 630
By: H_K - 21st February 2009 at 19:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here's another drawing of Victorious:
The same website has some great detailed drawings of Victorious:
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/WeaponBook/Victories/Draw/index.htm
You should use Paint.net. www.getpaint.net It's free and allows for layering & easy colouring, which is great when you want to modify drawings. I used it to draw up a comparison of several carriers to scale, using stock drawings I found online:
![<img src="http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee106/OPEX-Afghanistan/CarriercomparisonLargev2.jpg" alt="http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee106/OPEX-Afghanistan/CarriercomparisonLargev2.jpg" style=";" />](<img src="http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee106/OPEX-Afghanistan/CarriercomparisonLargev2.jpg" alt="http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee106/OPEX-Afghanistan/CarriercomparisonLargev2.jpg" style=";" />)
From this thread:http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86729
Posts: 630
By: H_K - 21st February 2009 at 19:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here are some more detailed Buccaneer drawings if you want to draw it to scale:
http://www.hunterteam.com/buccaneer_tech_specs.htm
This image in particular would make a good starting point:
Posts: 72
By: The Doc - 21st February 2009 at 22:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Obi Wan, your expert opinion please, Had Victorious been recomissioned then a further refit due mid to late seventies with bow ski-jump like Hermes & waist cat. Possible CAG would be 9 Buccaneers; 12 Sea Harriers; 4 Gannets & 5 ASW Sea Kings. Would she still be mechanically sound enough for service? If the RN top brass decided to surrender both the Ark & Eagle instead & kept Vicky & Hermes (no waist cat due to deck edge lift) would I be correct to assume the loses would've been avoidable in the South Atlantic? Do you know the results of the modified nose cone on the 3 1977 buccaneers & what effect would this have on operations in 1982?
PS like the drawings on Ship buckets. Any further info on the 1952 design other than the few lines in 'Navy Matters' & Tornados drawing on 'ship buckets'?
Posts: 72
By: The Doc - 21st February 2009 at 22:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For drawings, of ships, weapon systems & aircraft, try Shipbucket.
Posts: 519
By: Obi Wan Russell - 22nd February 2009 at 00:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IMHO, Victorious was mechanically and materially viable to the late 70s. When she was rebuilt in the 1950s, she was stripped down to the hangar deck, re boilered, re engined, re wired and re plumbed, essentially producing a new ship. At the time, the refit was said to have extended her life by twenty years, so 1978 becomes the OSD if no further major refits are given. Her 1972 pay off date was brought up when replacement by CVA-01 was on the cards. Considering the longevity of Hermes, I don't think it would have been difficult to keep Victorious in service into the 80s and possibly 90s, although justifying keeping her in service is another matter altogether. If possible, I'd keep the flight deck as is, two cats for the Buccs and Gannets, and the Sea Harriers can launch form the angled deck with a reasonable run. Victorious' angled deck sponson is probably to thin to support a catapult so if one is fitted there then a more substantial structure may be required. Refit costs are rising already, which is why I'd keep her as she was.
A ship of her size could comfortably operate about 30 Sea Harriers plus a sqn of helos (ASW/AEW) if the STOVL path is followed. The problem comes in keeping her active through the seventies. Assuming CVA-01 and her sisters go ahead, Victorious is relieved as a frontline carrier by 1972-74 (probable building delays with the CVAs), then she could be kept active as an ASW carrier/ training carrier, operating mostly with Sea Kings (20-30) and giving DLPs to Home based sqns like 736 and 767. The latter, with Phantoms, would only be able to do touch and go's, but these are valuable in themselves for practice. By 1980 she could embark an air group as illustrated earlier, 12 Sea Harriers for air defence, 9 Buccaneers for strike/tanking/recce, 4 Gannets for AEW (by the early 80s paerhaps a new mark with Searchwater radar instead of APS-20), and six to nine Sea Kings for ASW/SAR. As a parallell, the Indian carrier Vikrant operated as a hybrid CTOL/STOVL carrier in the mid 80s, with SHARs and Alize flying from the same deck. Hermes could likewise have been retained in CTOL form through the seventies in this manner, saving considerably on the cost of converting her to an LPH (and retaining Albion in the process, as she was in no way decrepit when paid off). In any case Victorious would have needed a major SLEP refit in the late 70s to keep her going for the 80s.
Posts: 338
By: PMN1 - 22nd February 2009 at 01:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I like it, the size of the ship probably severely restricts simultaneous take off and landing anyway but this version 'future proofs' it (as much as is possible i'd say) to the increased weight of aircraft.