By: alexz
- 21st April 2016 at 20:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its one thing that the IAF sets a ridiculously high bar versus the PAF which is happy to be replacing the F-7 and A-5s with something modern enough.
Frankly, do you think that it was a good idea to set a ridiculously high bar? Was the plan to ingeniously design and build the engines, radars logical and achievable? Without the ridiculously high bar (getting f414 and israeli radars from the beginning) the tejas could have been completed like in 2005 and resources could be then directed to a 5th gen fighter, and there would not be a need for the rafale buy in the 1st place.
As for comparison with the jf-17, the tejas might be a better plane by a bit, but as is for now, it is still work in progress while the jf-17 has entered squadron service. By the time the tejas finally enters production, who knows what advancement block III or newer jf-17 will have.
By: Teer
- 21st April 2016 at 21:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Frankly, do you think that it was a good idea to set a ridiculously high bar? Was the plan to ingeniously design and build the engines, radars logical and achievable? Without the ridiculously high bar (getting f414 and israeli radars from the beginning) the tejas could have been completed like in 2005 and resources could be then directed to a 5th gen fighter, and there would not be a need for the rafale buy in the 1st place.
IAF will always set a high bar & the issue has always been of limited resources in India forcing program delays and tech ambitions being curtailed. Add sanctions etc to the mess and lack of IAF interest, improper management w/production agency.. all learning experiences for a first time builder (Marut was long gone by the time LCA came and there was no Kurt Tank to hand over a design)
As for comparison with the jf-17, the tejas might be a better plane by a bit, but as is for now, it is still work in progress while the jf-17 has entered squadron service. By the time the tejas finally enters production, who knows what advancement block III or newer jf-17 will have.
Its a non trivial task to add 4 channel digital FBW (ask the US w/RSAF Boeings), and state of the art avionics like AESA/EW fits which India can source from countries like Israel, which has spent a decade plus in developing the EL/M-2052.
By: swerve
- 21st April 2016 at 21:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I should have not talked about radar. I took a shortcut. The components are what I should have mentioned. For the link b/w 20 & 16, you can follow the link that I have included in my post. For the link b/w the Rafale Radar and the F16 you should browse the name of the company that originally did work on the RBE2 (US owned). There are not much results with the amount of details needed here to be relevant with this conversation. You will find it pretty easily (could be in Fr)
For the scandal relative to the MLU and Dassault, I did post somewhere here a month ago a press report relating the end-inquiry. I think it's inflammatory enough to not paste it again, especially at this time, even given the situation.
I'm puzzled. The original developer of the RBE2 had a name partly derived from the American founder of one of the firms that merged to form it, but that was in the 19th century. It had no US ownership at all when work on the RBE2 began.
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By: BlackArcher
- 21st April 2016 at 21:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Er...what?
Did you really just try and say the Tejas has a higher wing loading than the F-20?
Have you actually seen the two aircraft?
The F-20 has a wing area only half that of the Tejas. And this reflects in the fact that the F20 has a wing loading much, much higher than the Tejas.
his entire post is wrong anyway. I forgot to clear up his wrong statement on the Tejas' "high wing loading", when in fact it has the lowest wing loading amongst most fighters.
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Posts: 3,337
By: BlackArcher
- 21st April 2016 at 21:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Frankly, do you think that it was a good idea to set a ridiculously high bar? Was the plan to ingeniously design and build the engines, radars logical and achievable? Without the ridiculously high bar (getting f414 and israeli radars from the beginning) the tejas could have been completed like in 2005 and resources could be then directed to a 5th gen fighter, and there would not be a need for the rafale buy in the 1st place.
As for comparison with the jf-17, the tejas might be a better plane by a bit, but as is for now, it is still work in progress while the jf-17 has entered squadron service. By the time the tejas finally enters production, who knows what advancement block III or newer jf-17 will have.
sigh. It has already entered production and the first squadron of Tejas is to be formed by July. the IAF will receive its second series production fighter before that..SP2 having already flown.
And the Advanced Block III or whatever you wanna call the JF-17...what are its specs? Any better than those of the Tejas Mk1A which is already in development and supposed to be delivered once the first 20 Tejas Mk1s are delivered? As of now, the Block 2 JF-17 has no revolutionary jump in capabilities..heck it lacks precision targeting even though its supposed to have been in squadron service for the past few years.
By: Teer
- 21st April 2016 at 21:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
his entire post is wrong anyway. I forgot to clear up his wrong statement on the Tejas' "high wing loading", when in fact it has the lowest wing loading amongst most fighters.
IAF TP (who are still aligned to IAF as officers and not the developer) view on its performance:
The Tejas has been designed as a multi-role fighter. It can engage enemy aircraft with the R-73 short-range air-to-air missile (SRAAM); by FOC next year, more potent air-to-air missiles, probably the Israeli Derby and Python, would be integrated. Against ground targets, the Tejas carries conventional and laser-guided bombs. Next year, it will have an integral 23 millimetre Gasha cannon.
The Tejas’ avionics --- radar, laser and inertial navigation system --- enhances the accuracy of these weapons. Its highly rated Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar provides multi-role capability, allowing the pilot to fire air-to-air missiles at enemy aircraft; and also bomb ground targets with a highly accurate navigation-attack system. The pilot operates his weapons through a head-up display (HUD), or through a helmet-mounted sighting system (HMSS) by merely looking at a target. Experienced fighter pilots say the Tejas is the IAF’s most “pilot friendly” fighter.
Although it is one of the world’s lightest fighters, the Tejas’ weapons load of 3,500 kg compares well with most IAF fighters, including the Mirage-2000, Jaguar, upgraded MiG-27 and the MiG-21. Depending on the mission --- strike, photoreconnaissance, or air defence --- its eight hard points can carry missiles, bombs, fuel drop tanks or a targeting pod. It can bomb targets and fire missiles as accurately as the Sukhoi-30MKI. The latter scores mainly in its longer range and bigger weapons load, both stemming from its much larger size.
The Tejas’ capability is best known to the air force and navy test pilots in the National Flight Test Centre, who have tested it in 2,400 flights. They claim it may be more versatile than the MiG-29 (primarily built for air-to-air combat); the MiG-27 and the Jaguar (both oriented to ground strike); and all variants of the MiG-21, including the multi-role BISON.
The Tejas’ likely adversary, the Pakistan Air Force’s F-16 fighter, has a slightly larger flight envelope, but the Tejas’ superior avionics give it a combat edge over the PAF’s older F-16A/Bs (currently being upgraded in Turkey); and superior to their new JF-17 Thunder light fighter, co-developed with China. Only the PAF’s 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, flying since 2010-11 from Jacobabad, may be a match for the Tejas.
Said an NFTC test pilot during the IOC ceremony on December 20: “As a multi-role fighter, the Tejas is at least the equal of the IAF’s upgraded Mirage-2000. It can more than hold its own in our operational scenario.”
Today, the IAF controls the aerial battle from airborne early warning and command (AEW&C) aircraft like the Phalcon, a giant radar mounted on a transport aircraft. Flying over the battle space and scanning 400 kilometres on all sides, the AEW&C identifies enemy aircraft and, over a secure datalink, allocates fighters from nearby bases to tackle the intruders. The AEW&C also orders up fighters to strike ground targets in the land battle.
“Tejas light fighters, located at forward airbases like Pathankot, Ambala, Sirsa or Jodhpur are ideal for missions in the vicinity of the border. They are close at hand and react quickly. Being far cheaper, they can be bought and used in larger numbers, saturating the enemy’s radar picture and complicating his decision-making,” says a senior former IAF planner.
“With an AEW&C guiding the Tejas directly to the target, it does not need a long operating range; and its combination of Elta-2032 radar and air-to-air missiles, are lethal against most contemporary fighters.”
Now, the standard production Tejas Mk1A is to have the Elta-2052. It would be interesting to see the range figures.
Illustrating Israeli capabilities, the Tejas Mark I was already armed with an all-Israeli combination of the Elta EL/M-2032 radar, the Derby and Python air-to-air missiles, and a data link that digitally interconnected these. Indian test pilots say this was a "world-class" air-to-air combat configuration. But now, the Elta-HAL AESA radar could make Tejas a more capable air-defence fighter.
As regards datalinking, its the most hush hush part of the Tejas program and even the IAF (try finding references to its data link program and current status).
However, the same radar, missile combination was on the IN Sea Harrier program. And there.
As part of the Limited Upgrade Sea Harrier (LUSH), the Indian Navy will shortly conduct its second live firing test of the Israeli Derby beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), a weapon system that has been integrated to the last of the Navy's Sea Harriers as part of the upgrade programme. While the first live firing of the Derby active-radar seeker missile was conducted using the aircraft's primary sensor, the next test will be from one of the Navy's upgraded Sea Harriers with its radar switched off. Guidance will be provided from another platform, either on the ground or in the air.
In short, cooperative engagement & the kind of stuff for which the Gripen was famous.
A major advantage of the I-Derby ER is that it uses the same missile envelope. Unlike the AAIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims. Already cleared on F-16 (Block 52), F-5E, Kfir and Sea Harrier, I-Derby ER integration tests are currently under way on the Indian Tejas LCA.
The Astra missile is also in advanced trials and is expected to be inducted soon. Astra Mk2 development is also expected to be less troublesome since the key motor has been developed by India already for the LRSAM/Barak-8 program.
There are also local programs underway for radar etc., so all in all Tejas will be produced with some pretty sharp claws and eyes.
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By: Y-20 Bacon
- 22nd April 2016 at 05:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Frankly, do you think that it was a good idea to set a ridiculously high bar? Was the plan to ingeniously design and build the engines, radars logical and achievable? Without the ridiculously high bar (getting f414 and israeli radars from the beginning) the tejas could have been completed like in 2005 and resources could be then directed to a 5th gen fighter, and there would not be a need for the rafale buy in the 1st place.
As for comparison with the jf-17, the tejas might be a better plane by a bit, but as is for now, it is still work in progress while the jf-17 has entered squadron service. By the time the tejas finally enters production, who knows what advancement block III or newer jf-17 will have.
toledo, i agree.
JF-17 is actually a pretty mediocre airplane. no matter how much the apologist and fan boys like to scream "but itz gots DSI boss!".
the Tejas is a far more ambitious airplane.. that will never get into service in meaningful numbers in a meaningful airframe. In which case, what good is a prototype aircraft vs one that is actually flying.
Tejas bar is like asking a honda civic to perform like a mustang. maybe they should just accept it is a civic.
By: Alpha Bravo
- 22nd April 2016 at 12:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
sigh. It has already entered production and the first squadron of Tejas is to be formed by July. the IAF will receive its second series production fighter before that..SP2 having already flown.
But it still won't be operational when only two aircraft will be inducted into the first squadron. These will still be used for 'testing' purposes, and not operational duties such as CAP missions. It seems the first IAF Tejas squadron will be a 'testing and evaluation squadron', so to speak. The deadline for operational clearance if the end of this year, but as with previous deadlines....
India will get its Tejas fighter squadron -- indigenously built Combat Aircraft -- on July 1, with two planes. The squadron will be based in in Tamil Nadu's Sulur.
Another two fighters are expected in the next financial year, 2016-17, a senior Air Force commander told NDTV. The total strength of the squadron - normally they have 14 to 16 aircraft -- and its name will be decided later.
The first two Tejas fighters, however, won't be used for operations now. They will undergo test flights to resolve certain flaws. The clearance for operations is expected in December.
The Tejas still has 19 unresolved issues - including nose wheel vibrations, high noise level in the cockpit -- which need to be sorted out. "The HAL (the manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) and IAF are working closely to sort out these issues, we expect them to go through it quickly," the commander said.
By: JSR
- 22nd April 2016 at 17:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Illustrating Israeli capabilities, the Tejas Mark I was already armed with an all-Israeli combination of the Elta EL/M-2032 radar, the Derby and Python air-to-air missiles, and a data link that digitally interconnected these. Indian test pilots say this was a "world-class" air-to-air combat configuration. But now, the Elta-HAL AESA radar could make Tejas a more capable air-defence fighter.
By: TomcatViP
- 22nd April 2016 at 20:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm puzzled. The original developer of the RBE2 had a name partly derived from the American founder of one of the firms that merged to form it, but that was in the 19th century. It had no US ownership at all when work on the RBE2 began.
If you think that I miss interpreted the name "Thomson" for that of an American chap, you sold my fur for cheap ;)
But it's a near miss. Look deeper in the story if you really want to skin that cat.
By: Teer
- 24th April 2016 at 03:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
toledo, i agree.
JF-17 is actually a pretty mediocre airplane. no matter how much the apologist and fan boys like to scream "but itz gots DSI boss!".
the Tejas is a far more ambitious airplane.. that will never get into service in meaningful numbers in a meaningful airframe. In which case, what good is a prototype aircraft vs one that is actually flying.
Tejas bar is like asking a honda civic to perform like a mustang. maybe they should just accept it is a civic.
Tejas orders stand at 100 Mk1A and some 20 Mk1. Naval LCAs will be around 40-60 but a more ambitious redesigned Mk2.
The IAF will probably order more Tejas once it proves itself but its need for light fighters will be at the 100-200 airframes level.
And that will be meaningful because it frees up Sukhois and (perhaps?) Rafales from a bunch of missions against, close range missions.
By: Teer
- 24th April 2016 at 03:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But it still won't be operational when only two aircraft will be inducted into the first squadron. These will still be used for 'testing' purposes, and not operational duties such as CAP missions. It seems the first IAF Tejas squadron will be a 'testing and evaluation squadron', so to speak. The deadline for operational clearance if the end of this year, but as with previous deadlines....
Again, the so called unresolved issues are minor ones wherein the IAF has dealt with far far worse.. noise in the cockpit? Ask any pilot about some of the MiGs.
Nosewheel vibrations? The Jaguars flew with hydraulic issues..which were never "resolved" but "mitigated".
These first 20 Tejas are merely Mk1s whereas the defacto IAF type is now Mk1A.
There is a constant sense to improve things to meet IAFs needs.
As of 2013, Tejas took 1 hr for mission TAT.
We demonstrated that we could turn around the same aircraft after a gap of an hour or so. On occasions, one Tejas did three sorties a day. The IAF technicians and maintenance officers eventually told us that they now see an aircraft that is reliable enough for combat operations.
For the IAF, which must mount multiple missions everyday with each Tejas fighter, easy “maintainability” and “low turn-around-time” are key attributes. The HAL chief says the IAF wants the fighter to take maximum 14 minutes between landing after a mission; and taking off for the next mission, fully checked, rearmed and refuelled. Currently, the Tejas takes about 20 minutes.
So the IAF will ask for the moon and get it, because it can.
[QUOTE="Cmdr Sukhesh Nagraj, Indian Navy]- Said how the LCA is designed as per the Test Pilot’s recommendations- whatever they want, ADA/HAL give it to them. He said let the IAF get the Rafale and then ask for these small changes and then they’ll figure out just how hard it is to get anything they want. On the N-LCA, we can integrate whatever we want, and for the entire lifetime of the fighter. Easier upgrades will be available since everything is known about the aircraft to the designers.[/quote]
Posts: 1,620
By: wilhelm - 21st April 2016 at 20:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Er...what?
Did you really just try and say the Tejas has a higher wing loading than the F-20?
Have you actually seen the two aircraft?
The F-20 has a wing area only half that of the Tejas. And this reflects in the fact that the F20 has a wing loading much, much higher than the Tejas.
Posts: 300
By: alexz - 21st April 2016 at 20:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Frankly, do you think that it was a good idea to set a ridiculously high bar? Was the plan to ingeniously design and build the engines, radars logical and achievable? Without the ridiculously high bar (getting f414 and israeli radars from the beginning) the tejas could have been completed like in 2005 and resources could be then directed to a 5th gen fighter, and there would not be a need for the rafale buy in the 1st place.
As for comparison with the jf-17, the tejas might be a better plane by a bit, but as is for now, it is still work in progress while the jf-17 has entered squadron service. By the time the tejas finally enters production, who knows what advancement block III or newer jf-17 will have.
Posts: 2,118
By: Teer - 21st April 2016 at 21:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IAF will always set a high bar & the issue has always been of limited resources in India forcing program delays and tech ambitions being curtailed. Add sanctions etc to the mess and lack of IAF interest, improper management w/production agency.. all learning experiences for a first time builder (Marut was long gone by the time LCA came and there was no Kurt Tank to hand over a design)
Its a non trivial task to add 4 channel digital FBW (ask the US w/RSAF Boeings), and state of the art avionics like AESA/EW fits which India can source from countries like Israel, which has spent a decade plus in developing the EL/M-2052.
Posts: 13,432
By: swerve - 21st April 2016 at 21:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm puzzled. The original developer of the RBE2 had a name partly derived from the American founder of one of the firms that merged to form it, but that was in the 19th century. It had no US ownership at all when work on the RBE2 began.
Posts: 3,337
By: BlackArcher - 21st April 2016 at 21:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
his entire post is wrong anyway. I forgot to clear up his wrong statement on the Tejas' "high wing loading", when in fact it has the lowest wing loading amongst most fighters.
Posts: 3,337
By: BlackArcher - 21st April 2016 at 21:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
sigh. It has already entered production and the first squadron of Tejas is to be formed by July. the IAF will receive its second series production fighter before that..SP2 having already flown.
And the Advanced Block III or whatever you wanna call the JF-17...what are its specs? Any better than those of the Tejas Mk1A which is already in development and supposed to be delivered once the first 20 Tejas Mk1s are delivered? As of now, the Block 2 JF-17 has no revolutionary jump in capabilities..heck it lacks precision targeting even though its supposed to have been in squadron service for the past few years.
Posts: 2,118
By: Teer - 21st April 2016 at 21:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IAF TP (who are still aligned to IAF as officers and not the developer) view on its performance:
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/12/the-tejas-fighters-role-in-war.html
Now, the standard production Tejas Mk1A is to have the Elta-2052. It would be interesting to see the range figures.
http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/7/41417.pdf
http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/cutting-edge-israeli-radar-wins-air-force-approval-for-tejas-fighter-115102500749_1.html
As regards datalinking, its the most hush hush part of the Tejas program and even the IAF (try finding references to its data link program and current status).
However, the same radar, missile combination was on the IN Sea Harrier program. And there.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/07/exclusive-navy-to-network-target-test.html
In short, cooperative engagement & the kind of stuff for which the Gripen was famous.
Later last year, reports emerged from the Israeli side on Derby ER being the Tejas's preferred fit.
http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2015/i-derby-er-all-new-performance-0
The Astra missile is also in advanced trials and is expected to be inducted soon. Astra Mk2 development is also expected to be less troublesome since the key motor has been developed by India already for the LRSAM/Barak-8 program.
There are also local programs underway for radar etc., so all in all Tejas will be produced with some pretty sharp claws and eyes.
Posts: 2,040
By: Y-20 Bacon - 22nd April 2016 at 05:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
toledo, i agree.
JF-17 is actually a pretty mediocre airplane. no matter how much the apologist and fan boys like to scream "but itz gots DSI boss!".
the Tejas is a far more ambitious airplane.. that will never get into service in meaningful numbers in a meaningful airframe. In which case, what good is a prototype aircraft vs one that is actually flying.
Tejas bar is like asking a honda civic to perform like a mustang. maybe they should just accept it is a civic.
Posts: 498
By: Alpha Bravo - 22nd April 2016 at 12:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But it still won't be operational when only two aircraft will be inducted into the first squadron. These will still be used for 'testing' purposes, and not operational duties such as CAP missions. It seems the first IAF Tejas squadron will be a 'testing and evaluation squadron', so to speak. The deadline for operational clearance if the end of this year, but as with previous deadlines....
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/with-two-planes-india-to-raise-its-first-tejas-squadron-in-july-1391301?site=full
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By: JSR - 22nd April 2016 at 17:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
was already armed?
Posts: 5,905
By: TomcatViP - 22nd April 2016 at 20:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If you think that I miss interpreted the name "Thomson" for that of an American chap, you sold my fur for cheap ;)
But it's a near miss. Look deeper in the story if you really want to skin that cat.
Posts: 2,118
By: Teer - 24th April 2016 at 03:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Tejas orders stand at 100 Mk1A and some 20 Mk1. Naval LCAs will be around 40-60 but a more ambitious redesigned Mk2.
The IAF will probably order more Tejas once it proves itself but its need for light fighters will be at the 100-200 airframes level.
And that will be meaningful because it frees up Sukhois and (perhaps?) Rafales from a bunch of missions against, close range missions.
Posts: 2,118
By: Teer - 24th April 2016 at 03:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Again, the so called unresolved issues are minor ones wherein the IAF has dealt with far far worse.. noise in the cockpit? Ask any pilot about some of the MiGs.
Nosewheel vibrations? The Jaguars flew with hydraulic issues..which were never "resolved" but "mitigated".
These first 20 Tejas are merely Mk1s whereas the defacto IAF type is now Mk1A.
There is a constant sense to improve things to meet IAFs needs.
As of 2013, Tejas took 1 hr for mission TAT.
http://www.business-standard.com/article/specials/there-are-no-serious-technology-challenges-ahead-p-s-subramanyam-113122000807_1.html
By October 2015.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/10/iaf-wants-aerial-refuelling-jammers.html
So the IAF will ask for the moon and get it, because it can.
[QUOTE="Cmdr Sukhesh Nagraj, Indian Navy]- Said how the LCA is designed as per the Test Pilot’s recommendations- whatever they want, ADA/HAL give it to them. He said let the IAF get the Rafale and then ask for these small changes and then they’ll figure out just how hard it is to get anything they want. On the N-LCA, we can integrate whatever we want, and for the entire lifetime of the fighter. Easier upgrades will be available since everything is known about the aircraft to the designers.[/quote]