By: farnboroughrob
- 14th May 2018 at 17:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes the Alcock & Brown statue is still at the visitors center. Never likes that extra deck in Longshots photo. It was built as extra capacity but you were out of luck with anything on 27R/09L as the newer T1 stands got in the way. By that time I had graduated to driving, and the delights of the perimeter roads like Cairns lane.
By: ianwoodward9
- 15th May 2018 at 15:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This is not LAP but Stansted, probably also from 1958 but perhaps 1959, and it is a photo that I definitely took myself - sorry about the tilt!
Apart from the pleasure of seeing G-ALDE, the Hermes belonging to 'Skyways of London', and the wee boy who observes it taxiing, I include this picture to show the spectator facilities available there at the time. A wire fence, a few metal chairs and a rubbish bin. Maybe there were toilet facilities, too, but I don't remember.
Arrangements such as these were more the standard at airports back then - if any spectator facilities existed at all, that is.
By: ianwoodward9
- 28th May 2018 at 17:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have some questions about runway use at LAP but, before that, a bit of background. I apologise to those who already know the early history of Heathrow but, for those who do not, here’s a brief synopsis.
Around 1930, Richard Fairey bought a 150-acre plot of land, adjacent to Cain’s Lane, from the local vicar and established the Great West Aerodrome. Fairey built and tested aircraft there and the RAeS held some garden parties there. It wasn’t long before Air Ministry officials regarded it as the ideal location for London’s main airport but knew Fairey would object, as would the County Council (it had located a ‘sludge works’ nearby) and the Ministry of Agriculture (it was productive land). Then along came WWII. Fairey wanted to expand the airfield but was rebuffed by the Air Ministry, which was developing its own plans. Under Defence Regulations, Fairey was, in 1944, ordered to quit and property in and around the site was requisitioned, ostensibly to build a new airfield from which RAF Transport Command could fly troops and war material to the Far East and help defeat the Japanese. This was never the Air Ministry’s true intention.
As part of the subterfuge, Heathrow was originally built as a ‘typical’ RAF airfield, with tree runways laid out in a triangular pattern, as shown below under construction in 1945 (an RAF photograph, I believe). I have numbered the three runways. Runway 1, the only one of the three completed by the time Heathrow opened to civil traffic in January 1946, is one of the two main runways now. Runway 2 was only 25% complete in early 1946 and I recall it being in use in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Runway 3 was 50% complete in 1946 and was not available when I started visiting LAP, as the central area had been built over it. Runway 3 had cost £350,000 (in mid-1940s money) but, apparently, there was never any intention to use it as a runway, which leads me to my question.
Does anyone know if Runway 3 was ever used for aircraft to land or take off?
By: Firebird
- 28th May 2018 at 17:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I can't answer about Runway 3 ever being used, I suspect not given central area building commenced around 1950/1.
Runway 2 was designated R23 and was in active use right up until October 2002, when it was withdrawn from use and the last aircraft ever to land on R23 was a SAA 747, ZS-SAU.
By: ianwoodward9
- 28th May 2018 at 21:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for the information, both. I didn't know that Runway 2 was still being used as recently as 2002 and the photograph of Runway 3 in 1946, used as 'overspill' aircraft parking is relevant to another question about runway use that I had in mind.
I have a copy of the Pitkin guide to London Airport. It has no publication date stated but, on the rear cover, there is reference to the "Roof Gardens ... (being open) ... from 1st May 1956", so let us assume the question is about runway use in 1955 or early 1956. The front cover had a drawing which showed aircraft parked on Runway 1, as though for 'spillover' parking then and a photograph inside seems to show the same.
In what circumstances would one of LAP's main runways have been used for 'spillover' aircraft parking ?
First the drawing (just the lower part and I've rendered it just in black and white) and the parked aircraft are towards the lower right corner:
By: longshot
- 28th May 2018 at 23:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ian...28R Runway No1 was closed from about 1952 till 1955 while the road tunnel was dug by cut and cover. The eastern end was used for overspill aircraft parking from the Northside apron which BEA was using increasingly with Ambassadors and Viscounts and eventually all of their London ops went there when they had to vacate Northolt (Oct54?)...the passengers were processed in the modest Northside terminal then bussed to the temporary apron on Runway No1...BEA had several wooden huts adjacent for staff[ATTACH=CONFIG]260710[/ATTACH]
taken by R A Scholefield from a BEA Bristol Sycamore a few days before BEA moved to the Europa Terminal
By: ianwoodward9
- 29th May 2018 at 00:09Permalink- Edited 8th November 2019 at 08:07
Many thanks, indeed, longshot. I never knew that and it was something that had intrigued me for quite a while.
Another question that has also intrigued me is the use made of Runway 4, which used to run from north to south across LAP, from the Northside to the Great South West Road.
The map below comes from a 1959 Ian Allan booklet. It shows LAP's runway layout in 1959. I have added the runway numbers, in red, at the ends of the runways.
The vestige of Runway 3, now that the Central Area is up and running, is only really clear at its northern end. It is not black and is shown only in outline form.
Runway 4 is shown in the same way as Runway 3, thus as a runway not in use and, broadly, this accords with my memory ......... EXCEPTTHAT ........
.........on one occasion, I have a fairly clear recollection of a Constellation revving up at the other end of Runway 4, then coming towards us on the grass beside the Great South West Road, lifting off, clearing the boundary and heading out over Feltham.
This must have been around 1961 - 1963, I'd guess
Does anyone else recall such a thing - or was it ever noted as such?
By: longshot
- 30th May 2018 at 12:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've heard other accounts of runway4 (15L) being occasionally used for take-offs, perhaps not after 1960?..... might have been in other threads on Key or in 'How did Heathrow used to look?' on Pprune. I remember a Viscount landing on 23R about 1960 , by then unusual (conflict with Northolt?). Read Heathrow ATC by Piket & Bish (2005) for usage trivia, and Heathrow by Ian Anderson and Heathrow by Charles Woodley are rich in detail and less than £10. B-29 shot attached came via the defunct Heathrow newspaper 'Skyport' and has been identified as approaching runway6 (15R) over the end of the Colnbrook Bypass , perhaps 1949?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]260745[/ATTACH]
By: Firebird
- 30th May 2018 at 20:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ian...28R Runway No1 was closed from about 1952 till 1955 while the road tunnel was dug by cut and cover.
Correct.
Not just the road tunnel cut and cover though, but included temp works access for the duration of the construction of the new buildings in the central area. You can actually just see the two works access roadways running across from Bath Rd to the central area either side of where the tunnel was cut and covered.
By: Firebird
- 30th May 2018 at 21:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
B-29 shot attached came via the defunct Heathrow newspaper 'Skyport' and has been identified as approaching runway6 (15R) over the end of the Colnbrook Bypass , perhaps 1949
Hmmmm............interesting.
The line of that runway would have put an aircraft overhead the Bath Rd at the junction of the Bath Rd and Hatch Lane (easy to do in Google using the straight line measure tool) and those houses in the background appear to be the ones adjacent about 500m further west along the Bath Rd., which is a LONG way away from the centreline approach of runway 6 that close to the piano keys......unless that is a seriously crabbed approach, in which case surely they would have used a different runway.....!!???
Looking on an old OS map from just after WW2, there were no houses close enough to the Hatch Lane junction at that time.....very odd.
By: longshot
- 30th May 2018 at 22:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The houses match the group next to the Immigration Centre entrance opposite the REGUS hotel, as you say west of Hatch Lane...the B-29s alignment isn't so bad...maybe there was a crosswind and LAPs runway were wide :-)
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 14th May 2018 at 16:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If this is up to date.....http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4777370[ATTACH=CONFIG]260576[/ATTACH]
Posts: 674
By: farnboroughrob - 14th May 2018 at 17:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes the Alcock & Brown statue is still at the visitors center. Never likes that extra deck in Longshots photo. It was built as extra capacity but you were out of luck with anything on 27R/09L as the newer T1 stands got in the way. By that time I had graduated to driving, and the delights of the perimeter roads like Cairns lane.
Posts: 408
By: TerryP - 14th May 2018 at 19:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lots of clips here:
https://britishpathe.com/search/query/Heathrow
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By: ianwoodward9 - 15th May 2018 at 12:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm pretty sure I took this photograph, probably some time in the very late 1950s on a camera that was the equivalent of a Box Brownie.
I've suggested 1958 and I'm afraid I do not know who that is on the right.
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By: ianwoodward9 - 15th May 2018 at 15:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This is not LAP but Stansted, probably also from 1958 but perhaps 1959, and it is a photo that I definitely took myself - sorry about the tilt!
Apart from the pleasure of seeing G-ALDE, the Hermes belonging to 'Skyways of London', and the wee boy who observes it taxiing, I include this picture to show the spectator facilities available there at the time. A wire fence, a few metal chairs and a rubbish bin. Maybe there were toilet facilities, too, but I don't remember.
Arrangements such as these were more the standard at airports back then - if any spectator facilities existed at all, that is.
No wonder we found those at LAP more congenial.
Posts: 860
By: ianwoodward9 - 25th May 2018 at 23:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thank you to whoever resolved the photo uploading problem.
Here's a model of LAP's Central Area from the late 1950s, I believe:
Posts: 860
By: ianwoodward9 - 26th May 2018 at 08:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The key to the above is not too clear, so here it is in a larger size:
Posts: 860
By: ianwoodward9 - 28th May 2018 at 17:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have some questions about runway use at LAP but, before that, a bit of background. I apologise to those who already know the early history of Heathrow but, for those who do not, here’s a brief synopsis.
Around 1930, Richard Fairey bought a 150-acre plot of land, adjacent to Cain’s Lane, from the local vicar and established the Great West Aerodrome. Fairey built and tested aircraft there and the RAeS held some garden parties there. It wasn’t long before Air Ministry officials regarded it as the ideal location for London’s main airport but knew Fairey would object, as would the County Council (it had located a ‘sludge works’ nearby) and the Ministry of Agriculture (it was productive land). Then along came WWII. Fairey wanted to expand the airfield but was rebuffed by the Air Ministry, which was developing its own plans. Under Defence Regulations, Fairey was, in 1944, ordered to quit and property in and around the site was requisitioned, ostensibly to build a new airfield from which RAF Transport Command could fly troops and war material to the Far East and help defeat the Japanese. This was never the Air Ministry’s true intention.
As part of the subterfuge, Heathrow was originally built as a ‘typical’ RAF airfield, with tree runways laid out in a triangular pattern, as shown below under construction in 1945 (an RAF photograph, I believe). I have numbered the three runways. Runway 1, the only one of the three completed by the time Heathrow opened to civil traffic in January 1946, is one of the two main runways now. Runway 2 was only 25% complete in early 1946 and I recall it being in use in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Runway 3 was 50% complete in 1946 and was not available when I started visiting LAP, as the central area had been built over it. Runway 3 had cost £350,000 (in mid-1940s money) but, apparently, there was never any intention to use it as a runway, which leads me to my question.
Does anyone know if Runway 3 was ever used for aircraft to land or take off?
Posts: 2,108
By: Firebird - 28th May 2018 at 17:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I can't answer about Runway 3 ever being used, I suspect not given central area building commenced around 1950/1.
Runway 2 was designated R23 and was in active use right up until October 2002, when it was withdrawn from use and the last aircraft ever to land on R23 was a SAA 747, ZS-SAU.
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 28th May 2018 at 17:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't know if it was NEVER used for landings/take-offs but by 1946 it was used to park 'overspill' aircraft https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW003345
from https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/search?keywords=heathrow&country=global&year=all you need to sign up to Britain from Above to get the zoom function etc.
Posts: 860
By: ianwoodward9 - 28th May 2018 at 21:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for the information, both. I didn't know that Runway 2 was still being used as recently as 2002 and the photograph of Runway 3 in 1946, used as 'overspill' aircraft parking is relevant to another question about runway use that I had in mind.
I have a copy of the Pitkin guide to London Airport. It has no publication date stated but, on the rear cover, there is reference to the "Roof Gardens ... (being open) ... from 1st May 1956", so let us assume the question is about runway use in 1955 or early 1956. The front cover had a drawing which showed aircraft parked on Runway 1, as though for 'spillover' parking then and a photograph inside seems to show the same.
In what circumstances would one of LAP's main runways have been used for 'spillover' aircraft parking ?
First the drawing (just the lower part and I've rendered it just in black and white) and the parked aircraft are towards the lower right corner:
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By: ianwoodward9 - 28th May 2018 at 21:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The photograph is less clear but the aircraft are there nevertheless, towards the upper left-hand corner:
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By: ianwoodward9 - 28th May 2018 at 22:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The grain on the photo makes it less than easy to see clearly. Here's the relevant section of the photo that I hope might be a bit clearer.
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By: longshot - 28th May 2018 at 23:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ian...28R Runway No1 was closed from about 1952 till 1955 while the road tunnel was dug by cut and cover. The eastern end was used for overspill aircraft parking from the Northside apron which BEA was using increasingly with Ambassadors and Viscounts and eventually all of their London ops went there when they had to vacate Northolt (Oct54?)...the passengers were processed in the modest Northside terminal then bussed to the temporary apron on Runway No1...BEA had several wooden huts adjacent for staff[ATTACH=CONFIG]260710[/ATTACH]
taken by R A Scholefield from a BEA Bristol Sycamore a few days before BEA moved to the Europa Terminal
Posts: 860
By: ianwoodward9 - 29th May 2018 at 00:09 Permalink - Edited 8th November 2019 at 08:07
Many thanks, indeed, longshot. I never knew that and it was something that had intrigued me for quite a while.
Another question that has also intrigued me is the use made of Runway 4, which used to run from north to south across LAP, from the Northside to the Great South West Road.
The map below comes from a 1959 Ian Allan booklet. It shows LAP's runway layout in 1959. I have added the runway numbers, in red, at the ends of the runways.
The vestige of Runway 3, now that the Central Area is up and running, is only really clear at its northern end. It is not black and is shown only in outline form.
Runway 4 is shown in the same way as Runway 3, thus as a runway not in use and, broadly, this accords with my memory ......... EXCEPT THAT ........
.........on one occasion, I have a fairly clear recollection of a Constellation revving up at the other end of Runway 4, then coming towards us on the grass beside the Great South West Road, lifting off, clearing the boundary and heading out over Feltham.
This must have been around 1961 - 1963, I'd guess
Does anyone else recall such a thing - or was it ever noted as such?
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 30th May 2018 at 12:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've heard other accounts of runway4 (15L) being occasionally used for take-offs, perhaps not after 1960?..... might have been in other threads on Key or in 'How did Heathrow used to look?' on Pprune. I remember a Viscount landing on 23R about 1960 , by then unusual (conflict with Northolt?). Read Heathrow ATC by Piket & Bish (2005) for usage trivia, and Heathrow by Ian Anderson and Heathrow by Charles Woodley are rich in detail and less than £10. B-29 shot attached came via the defunct Heathrow newspaper 'Skyport' and has been identified as approaching runway6 (15R) over the end of the Colnbrook Bypass , perhaps 1949?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]260745[/ATTACH]
Posts: 1,891
By: Black Knight - 30th May 2018 at 13:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anyone know what happened to the red P-51 Mustang Excalibur 3 model that was on the Queens Building rooftop gardens?
Posts: 2,108
By: Firebird - 30th May 2018 at 20:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Correct.
Not just the road tunnel cut and cover though, but included temp works access for the duration of the construction of the new buildings in the central area. You can actually just see the two works access roadways running across from Bath Rd to the central area either side of where the tunnel was cut and covered.
Posts: 2,108
By: Firebird - 30th May 2018 at 21:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmmmm............interesting.
The line of that runway would have put an aircraft overhead the Bath Rd at the junction of the Bath Rd and Hatch Lane (easy to do in Google using the straight line measure tool) and those houses in the background appear to be the ones adjacent about 500m further west along the Bath Rd., which is a LONG way away from the centreline approach of runway 6 that close to the piano keys......unless that is a seriously crabbed approach, in which case surely they would have used a different runway.....!!???
Looking on an old OS map from just after WW2, there were no houses close enough to the Hatch Lane junction at that time.....very odd.
Posts: 1,707
By: longshot - 30th May 2018 at 22:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The houses match the group next to the Immigration Centre entrance opposite the REGUS hotel, as you say west of Hatch Lane...the B-29s alignment isn't so bad...maybe there was a crosswind and LAPs runway were wide :-)