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By: - 15th May 2006 at 14:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not German I know, but the Cant Seaplane hijacked to Malta by the RAF POWs was apparently subsequently used on special operations, although for legal reasons in RAF markings -at night :)
By: - 15th May 2006 at 15:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi,
Didn't the RAF use He115's from Malta for dopping off agents? Can't remember if these were German of Norwegian examples though.
Alex
By: - 15th May 2006 at 15:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Former Norwegian Navy Heinkel He 115s were used operationally by the RAF, both in Scotland and in Malta. The ones based in Malta were allegedly flown in false Luftwaffe colours, and used on a variety of clandestine ops.
A number of Fi 156s were used by the RAF as squadron hacks, from North Africa and onwards.
Incidentally, the South African Air Force operated captured Luftwaffe Junkers Ju 52/3ms, in addition to the Ju 52/3ms that had been supplied to South African Airways before the war, and subsequently impressed by the SAAF.
Regards,
Jan
By: - 15th May 2006 at 15:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'd seen pictures of the Storch hacks, but I was unaware of the He115 in service. I will certainly be following that up!
There is the story of Ian Fleming planning to crash a captured bomber into the Channel in 1940 to be picked up by German ASR, and thereby capture the Enigma setting for that day, but it did seem a bit mad, even for that time (why not simply pretend to ditch?).
While I'm on the subject of special ops, can anyone tell me anything about an RAF Cat which is supposed to have landed on a Berlin lake in late April 1945. I'd read about it in a novel some years ago, but was unsure as to whether it was a 'real' siting and the author had then speculated or whether it was entirely made up.
By: - 15th May 2006 at 15:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here's a short piece on the Heinkel He 115, including its use by the RAF: http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/Artikler/115.html
Regards,
Jan
By: - 15th May 2006 at 16:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was only aware of one ex-Norwegian 115 based in Malta which was destroyed fairly early on by a direct hit on its hangar, and one other, again ex Norwegian, used briefly from Woodhaven in the U.K. before being broken up. There were certainly a fair number of aircraft of German origin used by the RAF and its allied air forces in various guises e.g. SAAF Ju 86s
In the Mediterranean and African region many captured aircraft were pressed into service as hacks or used as personal or squadron trophies before being written off, or , in the case of some Italian trophies, even handed over to the co-belligerent airforce.
Some aircraft "came across" , by fair means or foul , and probably the full story will never come out in many cases - e.g. the Ju 88 in RAFM. There are also many unproven stories of aircraft flying in and out of U.K. from Germany on "peace" missions in the early part of the war.
A lot of the K.G. 200 story has been somewhat exaggerated, largely through an unfortunate fictional book of some years ago. Keeping large numbers of captured aircraft flying covertly is not a realistic exercise on logistical or security grounds. Nevertheless there is a lot that hasn't come out for sure so this should be an interesting thread to follow!
By: - 16th May 2006 at 00:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know its slightly out of context being just post war but the RAE at Farnborough used captured Ar 232B-0 Werk Number 305002 as a heavy transport, It made several trips to the continent following its arrival at Farnborough on 14th July 1945. It was scrapped in 1947.
Seem to remember Farnborough had a Ju 252 or 352 but whether it saw any proper use I dont know, maybe like all the other captured aircraft used for testing purposes only.
By: - 16th May 2006 at 04:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
During the North African campaign 260 Sqn RAF captured a HE 111 on Derna airfield on Nov, 1942, it was painted with RAF roundels and coded ? HS. The sqn used it to transport vegetables, beer and the like. Stocky Edwards who was the top scoring Kittyhawk pilot in the Theatre also flew a captured bf 109 coded HS !, Later in the war and then a Wing Commander Stocky Edwards had his own FW 190 CODED JFE, pictures of all 3 aircraft are in his book "Kittyhawk Pilot" Edwards lives in Comox B.C. and is frequent visitor to the Y2K Spitfire project www.y2kspitfire.com
By: - 16th May 2006 at 07:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Have been lucky enough to attend a couple of lectures given by Captain Eric 'winkle' Brown ex RN test pilot. As he is a fluent german speaker he was on loan to the Army during the latter stages of WW2 as the advancing troops captured airfields etc.
He recalled an airfield just outside Hamburg where they found a lot of destroyed aircraft but several complete, undamaged Me262's. He was of the opinion that the retreating forces could not bring themselves to destroy them.
He also recalled a test flight he was doing in an Arado 234 jet bomber - one of the major problems with the coaxial flow engines used by the germans was the short life span (usually around 25 hours before being scrapped or failing) UK jet engines at the time were of the centrifugal type (more reliable) so he had to rely on a) captured techies preparing the aircraft and b) any maintenance records being available. He recalled starting both engines, getting to the end of the runway, opening up the throttles and starting to take off. The aircraft got about 50 yards before 1 of the engines 'went bang' taking the wing with it. He estimated that enginer had done 24hours and 50mins running time.
By: - 16th May 2006 at 08:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That incident with the Arado's in one of Winkles's books.
IIRC, it was sabotage. He had half a dozen Luftwaffe techies working on it and none of them would say who'd done it until the brown job in charge produced a revolver whereupon they all pointed at one bloke. No further problems. :)
By: - 16th May 2006 at 09:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RAFwaffe
By coincidence I came across this shot just a few weeks back during my recent travels. I would judge by the associate shots that it is possibly North Africa or more probably Italy by virtue of a 450 Squadron Mustang III, as operated from Jesi, in the bunch.
Mark.
By: - 16th May 2006 at 10:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting photo, Mark12,
Can anyone identify the stammkennzeichen (i.e. factory or unit codes) ??+HH of the Ju 52/3m? I don't have my copy of War Prizes at hand, but is there any mention of a likely Ju 52 in it?
According to this site: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/stammkennzeichen.html, two Ju 52/3ms were issued the codes CQ+HH and NA+HH respectively. However, I would presume these codes to be factory codes, and not those of operational units.
Regards,
Jan
By: - 16th May 2006 at 10:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting photo, Mark12,Can anyone identify the stammkennzeichen (i.e. factory or unit codes) ??+HH of the Ju 52/3m? I don't have my copy of War Prizes at hand, but is there any mention of a likely Ju 52 in it?
According to this site: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/stammkennzeichen.html, two Ju 52/3ms were issued the codes CQ+HH and NA+HH respectively. However, I would presume these codes to be factory codes, and not those of operational units.
Regards,
Jan
Here is an adjacent low grade shot with the JU 52 to the far right.
I have checked that HH would not be an appropriate RAF code.
Mark
By: - 16th May 2006 at 10:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Mark12,
Any visible squadron codes on the Spitfire? It has the appearance of a PR variant, although I am most likely mistaken.
Regards,
Jan
By: - 16th May 2006 at 11:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Mark12,Any visible squadron codes on the Spitfire? It has the appearance of a PR variant, although I am most likely mistaken.
Regards,
Jan
Jan,
I have just the image I took of the print with my digital. The Spitfire is mighty small, but racked up there is the hint of a single small 'E' at about 2 o'clock on the roundel. It might be a smudge. :)
The tail group looks more like a PRXIX rather than a PRXI but I cannot be sure.
Mark
By: - 16th May 2006 at 12:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks again, Mark.
If it is a PR XIX, that would indicate that the photo was taken after May 1944, and therefore somewhere in southern Italy. If so, the Ju 52 may have possibly belonged to a unit based in Italy, such as III/TG 2, which was reformed from K GrzbV 106 at Brindisi during May 1943. Incidentally, the Ju 52 lacks the white rear-fuselage band and white wingtip, indicating an aircraft based in North Africa. The glider tug hook is interesting, though.
I'll check my copy of War Prizes tonight.
Regards,
Jan
By: - 16th May 2006 at 12:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Looks very much indeed like a PR Spitfire . I just wonder if this is southern Italy ( with something like a 221 Wimpey in the backgound if it was Foggia or Grottagli?) Just a muse. Anybody got anything firmer?
By: - 16th May 2006 at 12:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If the Mustang III shot is contemporary, then according to John Rawlings, it was operated at Jesi, Italy, post November 1944.
Mark
By: - 16th May 2006 at 21:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi,Didn't the RAF use He115's from Malta for dopping off agents? Can't remember if these were German of Norwegian examples though.
Alex
They where ex Norwegian Marine, belive 2 or 3 models flew to England after Norway was invaded. The germans took 1 or 2 and put them to use. All the planes was shoot down or crashed during the war. I know I have a picture of oine of them somwhere, will try to post it.
By: - 17th May 2006 at 05:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mark12,
450 Squadron also operated out of Fano (Nov 44-Feb 45) and Cervia (Feb 45-May45) at around that time following a spell at Lesi (Sept44-Nov44) if that helps. Any chance of posting a scan of the MkIII?
Regards,
David M3
Posts: 8
By: Mike15 - 15th May 2006 at 13:38
There is a fair amount of information about the Luftwaffe using captured Allied aircraft, not just for secret missions (such as KG200), but also for analysis. But I'm interested in what German aircraft were used for when they were captured by the allies?
Obviously many were used for testing, and there are several books about the post-war interest in German types, but I'm more interested in wartime use.
I know that Churchill used a Storch when he visited Normandy after D-Day, and Ju52's were used by BEA post war (which must have been interesting!), but were any used on special ops? The 'Where Eagles Dare' idea, of using captured enemy aircraft to insert spies, etc is one I havn't heard about, and I'm wondering if it took place.
I tried one of the general history forum on the BBC website first, but had no luck.
Can anyone help?