By: Orion
- 29th May 2011 at 22:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Surely who came up with the idea first is the whole point of the thread - or have you missed something?
I would have thought the original creative spark was the most important phase of any innovative design - not how bigger national budgets can copy, modify, and eventually improve on the idea...
I thought that part of the point was who first applied the concept to a transonic aeroplane which is implied by the inclusion of the M.52 in the thread.
By: alertken
- 30th May 2011 at 10:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
US "Stole" Nothing from Miles.
1935: Air Minister Swinton agreed with UK Aero industry that his introduction of second-source shadow producers (largely the auto industry) would be only "for the duration" and that new design competitors would not be subsidised. Phillips & Powis were not part of the established A.M "Ring".
11/42: "keen nationaliser" Stafford Cripps as Minister of Aircraft Production; 1/4/43 caused the exchange of tank and turbine engines, by which RR tookover Rover's work on Whittle W.2B. Frank W. urged that the piston aero-engine firms were not up to turbines, should all be nationalised, and (his) Power Jets Ltd. made sole turbine supplier.
1943: George and Fred Miles had greater design ambition than Magister, and against Swinton's policy had just extracted an ITP to move into metal on (to be) Monitor, when:
10/43: Cripps, with his Lady Isobel, visited Woodley and found: a) “enterprising designs (solving) fantastic problems” D.Wood,Project Cancelled,P29. One was the Gillette wing; and b): Blossom, a novelty in UK Industry. What, he asked his officials, can we do with this resource?
In MAP's Aircraft Research office, Ben Lockspeiser said: Whittle has a scheme to combine high speed+good s.f.c; we need to fly it, and the razor wing would be OK, as we do not need a military loadout underwing, or much internal fuel. None of the "Ring" would moan about a dead-end one-off going to Woodley. Done, said Cripps, and W2/700 turbofan with plenum chamber burning had an FTB. Neither then, nor ever after, was there a UK military Requirement to fly at eyeball-battering speed in a straight line with modest payload/range, from a very long, very vulnerable runway. W.Germany did so, for reasons we all know, but USAF/USN/USMC bought >4,000 F-4s, no F-104Gs.
early-1946. Peace. No enemy. Power Jets had been Nationalised to become RAE's NGTE. Walking before we tried to run, piston firms were feeling their way in turbines that might have some utility, especially for Brabazon's civil suite, which included Type VA Feeder Miles M.60 Marathon, won vs bids from Westland and Percival (also not in the "Ring"), 10/44, Mk.I with Gipsy Queen, intended Mk.II with propeller-turbines. W2/700 had no application. (Now Sir) Ben Lockspeiser as MAP/MoS R&D Controller, Cripps now President of the Board of Trade; Lord Keynes negotiating $-lifeline, to be US/UK Financial & Trade Agreement, 7/46. That would include settling "Lend/Lease": never "free", the silly $ sign had been deferred until the fire was put out. The Act to Promote the Defense of US required benefit to US “as the President deems satisfactory.”
Keynes puffed Reverse Lend/Lease creatively. Much was Trinidad/Abadan oil, food for GIs, spark plugs...but he made the most of Whittlework, radar, anything to net the obligation, which he did for $650Mn.(UK had received $27Bn., gross of $6Bn.Reverse. R.S.Sayers, Financial Policy, HMSO Civil Series, Official History of WW2, 1956, Pp.498/522). Looks good to me. (This is the Loan we paid off in ?2005).
So MoS offered up M.52 data as admissible to last-minute scurrying to build up Reverse. Sir Ben must be skillful in presenting the cause of cancellation, 2/46, both to "count" as benefit-to-US, and to protect President Cripps from "wrong" choices, Oct.1943 and Oct.1944 (50 Marathons were being ordered for (to be)BEAC+BOAC). So he came up with not "endangering" brave test pilots, which made US happy.
UK "gave" nothing to US, who "stole" nothing. All, bar none, Aero conspiracies in the sense we wuz robbed are, at best, misguided.
By: merlin2
- 19th August 2013 at 14:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I do get fed up with documentaries in this country claiming that Britain invented just about everything- but i suspect similar things happen in other countries too!
LOL.. You are not alone in this mate.. Brits need their bed time stories.. Those people who believe they invented everything are those who are not interested in finding out the truth, they just want to believe what makes them comfortable. Yes, Jet engine,Radar,Computer's no nation alone can claim the invention of those ,least of all Britain when you consider the contributions made by other countries.
By: merlin2
- 19th August 2013 at 14:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Most advances in US technology from WW2 to the 1950s was 'borrowed' from other nations, either as part of the Lease-Lend, or as war booty.
The UK simply handed them the jet engine, radar, code-breaking computers, and angled flight decks, while the swept wing, modern submarine and tank design, and rocketry was taken from captured German equipment.
They also had quite a hand in scuppering other nation's technological advances post war, like the Avro Arrow and TSR-2, by fiscal blackmail.
An interesting security fact - out of all the countries who spy on the UK, the US is still tops.
'Essential Relatioship' anyone?:rolleyes:
Yes embittered and obviously clueless... Radar: You didn't hand over the radar to Americans mate as a matter of fact, the Americans had the radar before the British ! The SCR-270 (Signal Corps Radio model 270) was one of the first operational early warning radars. It is also known as the Pearl Harbor Radar, that detected the incoming raid about half an hour before the attack commenced and all that before the US joined the War !!!
Jet Engine?? in the beginning yes I would say.. Whitles engine with centrifugal compressor was already outdated before 1950 and replaced by German turbojet with axial compressors which powered the North American Sabre in Korea.
code breaking computer?? never heard about this mate sorry?? sounds absurd .modern submarine ?? are you kidding ?? Germans were leading country in submarine technology when the war ended . Americans handed over to you the nuclear submarine technology in 1958 (US–UK Mutual Defence Agreement ) . HMS Dreadnought was the United Kingdom's first nuclear-powered submarine with an American built Westinghouse S5W reactor, ring a bell?? TSR- 2 is a vastly exaggerated project never gone anywhere beyond prototype stage, 4 aircraft built , all facing enormous technical problems , none has satisfied the requirements before the labour government has cancelled it .. But you Brits have the ultimate magic recipe..Anytime you guys screw up , blame the yanks !!
An interesting security fact - out of all the countries who spy on the UK, the US is still tops. No, the other way around.. Apache helicopters, AWACS , Trident2 SLBM, Tomahawk cruise missiles all American technology bought by the Brits.
Your gains from this so called essential relationship is far bigger than the Americans.
By: merlin2
- 19th August 2013 at 14:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
To be honest Flood - I sometimes feel the same way about these British aircraft industry "hard done by" stories. British aviation enthusiasts are sometimes very begrudging to the achievements of the US aircraft industry.
If anyone serves flak over British aviation industry missing out on opportunities it's British politicians - who consistently dashed the prize out of British manufacurers' hands just when it was within reach.
Britains unhealthy obsession with the USA stems from tremendous success of US commercial aircraft industry back in 1960 until today
707 and DC-8 versus VC-10, Hawker Siddeley Tridents versus B727, BAC-111 versus DC-9
Result: gas guzzling and inefficient Brits completely driven out of the market.. If they had been successful, Airbus would not have existed today..That hurts.
By: merlin2
- 19th August 2013 at 15:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What acquisition? Thanks to the McMahon Act (I think) despite our input to the Manhattan Project we were completely frozen out of research and had to develop our A and H bombs alone.
From a quick google it was 1958 before the USA started sharing nuclear information with us again.
This was because of Klaus Fuchs ,the German born member of the British Canadian tube alloy project ..Americans didn't trust the Brits after that.
this mistrust became even greater after Philby, Burgess and all the other Cambridge gay agents escaped to USSR.
In 1958, the Americans have decided to share their nuclear submarine technology with Brits despite the fact that Admiral Hyman Rickover,the father of nuclear sub, bitterly opposed to the idea. Eisenhower on the other hand were in favour of technology transfer as he wanted to make Brits happy after Suez.
By: Edgar Brooks
- 19th August 2013 at 15:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Radar: You didn't hand over the radar to Americans mate as a matter of fact, the Americans had the radar before the British ! The SCR-270 (Signal Corps Radio model 270) was one of the first operational early warning radars. It is also known as the Pearl Harbor Radar, that detected the incoming raid about half an hour before the attack commenced and all that before the US joined the War !!!
Really? So, tell us, mate, how we managed to have the Chain Home system operational in 1935, how we were able to see German raids building up in 1940, and carried out the first aircraft-borne, radar-controlled interception, and kill, in 1940.
code breaking computer?? never heard about this mate sorry?? sounds absurd
.
Well, mate, I suggest you read up about Bletchley Park, Enigma and Colossus, and how desperate the U.S. was to get involved, but, initially, weren't trusted because it was felt that their security "system" was too full of holes.
New
Posts: 3,208
By: Mike J
- 19th August 2013 at 15:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By: merlin2
- 19th August 2013 at 17:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
>>Really? So, tell us, mate, how we managed to have the Chain Home system operational in 1935, how we were able to see German raids building up in 1940, and carried out the first aircraft-borne, radar-controlled interception, and kill, in 1940 >>
1921 The invention of the Magnetron as an efficient transmitting tube by the US-american physicist Albert Wallace Hull
1922 The American electrical engineers Albert H. Taylor and Leo C. Young of the Naval Research Laboratory (USA) locate a wooden ship for the first time.
1930 Lawrence A. Hyland (also of the Naval Research Laboratory), locates an aircraft for the first time.
>>Well, mate, I suggest you read up about Bletchley Park, Enigma and Colossus, and how desperate the U.S. was to get involved, but, initially, weren't trusted because it was felt that their security "system" was too full of holes.>>
Well in the end you didn't give Americans code braking computers.
By: 1batfastard
- 19th August 2013 at 18:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi All,
I remember seeing a documentary about breaking the sound barrier and although the X-1 broke it , it was a British Idea of a movable horizontal tail-plane from the designer of the M-52 that made it all possible and the U.S. only got the design because of the lack of government support and pressure to help the U.S. out with their project this all came from the designers lips in the documentary.
By: Edgar Brooks
- 19th August 2013 at 21:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
1922 The American electrical engineers Albert H. Taylor and Leo C. Young of the Naval Research Laboratory (USA) locate a wooden ship for the first time.
1930 Lawrence A. Hyland (also of the Naval Research Laboratory), locates an aircraft for the first time.
1923 Watson-Watt proves the concept, by pinpointing, at hundreds of miles range, the whereabouts of thunderstorms, enabling pilots to be warned.
Well in the end you didn't give Americans code braking computers.
But we gave them information that enabled the U-boats to be defeated, and ensured the success of the D-day invasion.
Jet Engine?? in the beginning yes I would say.. Whitles engine with centrifugal compressor was already outdated before 1950 and replaced by German turbojet with axial compressors which powered the North American Sabre in Korea.
Whittle's (out of courtesy, do try to get a man's name correct) engine was obsolescent before the end of the war, since Metropolitan-Vickers engines, using axial-flow compressors designed (and worked on since 1936) by the RAE, had first flown in a modified Lancaster in mid-1943, so the Germans had little to do with it.
By: Deskpilot
- 20th August 2013 at 00:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Americans said, "you show us yours, and we'll show you ours" Unfortunately, once they had British know-how, they reneged on the agreement. Typical bloody yanks. Never did, never will trust them.
By: mike currill
- 20th August 2013 at 15:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Really? So, tell us, mate, how we managed to have the Chain Home system operational in 1935, how we were able to see German raids building up in 1940, and carried out the first aircraft-borne, radar-controlled interception, and kill, in 1940.
.
Well, mate, I suggest you read up about Bletchley Park, Enigma and Colossus, and how desperate the U.S. was to get involved, but, initially, weren't trusted because it was felt that their security "system" was too full of holes.
In addition to the last part of that post I would have to say that in my experience it still is, yet they are paranoid about the rest of the world seeing some of their technology which foreign intelligence knows more about than their own citizens.
Posts: 699
By: Orion - 29th May 2011 at 22:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I thought that part of the point was who first applied the concept to a transonic aeroplane which is implied by the inclusion of the M.52 in the thread.
Regards
Posts: 887
By: alertken - 30th May 2011 at 10:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
US "Stole" Nothing from Miles.
1935: Air Minister Swinton agreed with UK Aero industry that his introduction of second-source shadow producers (largely the auto industry) would be only "for the duration" and that new design competitors would not be subsidised. Phillips & Powis were not part of the established A.M "Ring".
11/42: "keen nationaliser" Stafford Cripps as Minister of Aircraft Production; 1/4/43 caused the exchange of tank and turbine engines, by which RR tookover Rover's work on Whittle W.2B. Frank W. urged that the piston aero-engine firms were not up to turbines, should all be nationalised, and (his) Power Jets Ltd. made sole turbine supplier.
1943: George and Fred Miles had greater design ambition than Magister, and against Swinton's policy had just extracted an ITP to move into metal on (to be) Monitor, when:
10/43: Cripps, with his Lady Isobel, visited Woodley and found: a) “enterprising designs (solving) fantastic problems” D.Wood,Project Cancelled,P29. One was the Gillette wing; and b): Blossom, a novelty in UK Industry. What, he asked his officials, can we do with this resource?
In MAP's Aircraft Research office, Ben Lockspeiser said: Whittle has a scheme to combine high speed+good s.f.c; we need to fly it, and the razor wing would be OK, as we do not need a military loadout underwing, or much internal fuel. None of the "Ring" would moan about a dead-end one-off going to Woodley. Done, said Cripps, and W2/700 turbofan with plenum chamber burning had an FTB. Neither then, nor ever after, was there a UK military Requirement to fly at eyeball-battering speed in a straight line with modest payload/range, from a very long, very vulnerable runway. W.Germany did so, for reasons we all know, but USAF/USN/USMC bought >4,000 F-4s, no F-104Gs.
early-1946. Peace. No enemy. Power Jets had been Nationalised to become RAE's NGTE. Walking before we tried to run, piston firms were feeling their way in turbines that might have some utility, especially for Brabazon's civil suite, which included Type VA Feeder Miles M.60 Marathon, won vs bids from Westland and Percival (also not in the "Ring"), 10/44, Mk.I with Gipsy Queen, intended Mk.II with propeller-turbines. W2/700 had no application. (Now Sir) Ben Lockspeiser as MAP/MoS R&D Controller, Cripps now President of the Board of Trade; Lord Keynes negotiating $-lifeline, to be US/UK Financial & Trade Agreement, 7/46. That would include settling "Lend/Lease": never "free", the silly $ sign had been deferred until the fire was put out. The Act to Promote the Defense of US required benefit to US “as the President deems satisfactory.”
Keynes puffed Reverse Lend/Lease creatively. Much was Trinidad/Abadan oil, food for GIs, spark plugs...but he made the most of Whittlework, radar, anything to net the obligation, which he did for $650Mn.(UK had received $27Bn., gross of $6Bn.Reverse. R.S.Sayers, Financial Policy, HMSO Civil Series, Official History of WW2, 1956, Pp.498/522). Looks good to me. (This is the Loan we paid off in ?2005).
So MoS offered up M.52 data as admissible to last-minute scurrying to build up Reverse. Sir Ben must be skillful in presenting the cause of cancellation, 2/46, both to "count" as benefit-to-US, and to protect President Cripps from "wrong" choices, Oct.1943 and Oct.1944 (50 Marathons were being ordered for (to be)BEAC+BOAC). So he came up with not "endangering" brave test pilots, which made US happy.
UK "gave" nothing to US, who "stole" nothing. All, bar none, Aero conspiracies in the sense we wuz robbed are, at best, misguided.
Posts: 1,707
By: WebPilot - 30th May 2011 at 10:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I didn't know Lincolnshire was that much of a global threat! :D
Posts: 305
By: merlin2 - 19th August 2013 at 14:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
LOL.. You are not alone in this mate.. Brits need their bed time stories.. Those people who believe they invented everything are those who are not interested in finding out the truth, they just want to believe what makes them comfortable. Yes, Jet engine,Radar,Computer's no nation alone can claim the invention of those ,least of all Britain when you consider the contributions made by other countries.
Posts: 305
By: merlin2 - 19th August 2013 at 14:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes embittered and obviously clueless... Radar: You didn't hand over the radar to Americans mate as a matter of fact, the Americans had the radar before the British ! The SCR-270 (Signal Corps Radio model 270) was one of the first operational early warning radars. It is also known as the Pearl Harbor Radar, that detected the incoming raid about half an hour before the attack commenced and all that before the US joined the War !!!
Jet Engine?? in the beginning yes I would say.. Whitles engine with centrifugal compressor was already outdated before 1950 and replaced by German turbojet with axial compressors which powered the North American Sabre in Korea.
code breaking computer?? never heard about this mate sorry?? sounds absurd .modern submarine ?? are you kidding ?? Germans were leading country in submarine technology when the war ended . Americans handed over to you the nuclear submarine technology in 1958 (US–UK Mutual Defence Agreement ) . HMS Dreadnought was the United Kingdom's first nuclear-powered submarine with an American built Westinghouse S5W reactor, ring a bell?? TSR- 2 is a vastly exaggerated project never gone anywhere beyond prototype stage, 4 aircraft built , all facing enormous technical problems , none has satisfied the requirements before the labour government has cancelled it .. But you Brits have the ultimate magic recipe..Anytime you guys screw up , blame the yanks !!
An interesting security fact - out of all the countries who spy on the UK, the US is still tops. No, the other way around.. Apache helicopters, AWACS , Trident2 SLBM, Tomahawk cruise missiles all American technology bought by the Brits.
Your gains from this so called essential relationship is far bigger than the Americans.
Posts: 305
By: merlin2 - 19th August 2013 at 14:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
BS.....
Posts: 305
By: merlin2 - 19th August 2013 at 14:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Britains unhealthy obsession with the USA stems from tremendous success of US commercial aircraft industry back in 1960 until today
707 and DC-8 versus VC-10, Hawker Siddeley Tridents versus B727, BAC-111 versus DC-9
Result: gas guzzling and inefficient Brits completely driven out of the market.. If they had been successful, Airbus would not have existed today..That hurts.
Posts: 305
By: merlin2 - 19th August 2013 at 15:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This was because of Klaus Fuchs ,the German born member of the British Canadian tube alloy project ..Americans didn't trust the Brits after that.
this mistrust became even greater after Philby, Burgess and all the other Cambridge gay agents escaped to USSR.
In 1958, the Americans have decided to share their nuclear submarine technology with Brits despite the fact that Admiral Hyman Rickover,the father of nuclear sub, bitterly opposed to the idea. Eisenhower on the other hand were in favour of technology transfer as he wanted to make Brits happy after Suez.
Posts: 894
By: Edgar Brooks - 19th August 2013 at 15:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Really? So, tell us, mate, how we managed to have the Chain Home system operational in 1935, how we were able to see German raids building up in 1940, and carried out the first aircraft-borne, radar-controlled interception, and kill, in 1940.
.
Well, mate, I suggest you read up about Bletchley Park, Enigma and Colossus, and how desperate the U.S. was to get involved, but, initially, weren't trusted because it was felt that their security "system" was too full of holes.
Posts: 3,208
By: Mike J - 19th August 2013 at 15:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Do not feed the troll!
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 19th August 2013 at 15:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Without feeding the troll, would people please restrict themselves to topics they know something about? And I don't mean parroting Wikipedia.
Posts: 305
By: merlin2 - 19th August 2013 at 17:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
>>Really? So, tell us, mate, how we managed to have the Chain Home system operational in 1935, how we were able to see German raids building up in 1940, and carried out the first aircraft-borne, radar-controlled interception, and kill, in 1940 >>
1921 The invention of the Magnetron as an efficient transmitting tube by the US-american physicist Albert Wallace Hull
1922 The American electrical engineers Albert H. Taylor and Leo C. Young of the Naval Research Laboratory (USA) locate a wooden ship for the first time.
1930 Lawrence A. Hyland (also of the Naval Research Laboratory), locates an aircraft for the first time.
>>Well, mate, I suggest you read up about Bletchley Park, Enigma and Colossus, and how desperate the U.S. was to get involved, but, initially, weren't trusted because it was felt that their security "system" was too full of holes.>>
Well in the end you didn't give Americans code braking computers.
Posts: 305
By: merlin2 - 19th August 2013 at 18:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
LOL......274 POSTS SINCE 2009 AND TROLL...SURE PAL..
Posts: 5,953
By: avion ancien - 19th August 2013 at 18:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Send in the third Billy Goat Gruff!
Posts: 3,671
By: 1batfastard - 19th August 2013 at 18:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi All,
I remember seeing a documentary about breaking the sound barrier and although the X-1 broke it , it was a British Idea of a movable horizontal tail-plane from the designer of the M-52 that made it all possible and the U.S. only got the design because of the lack of government support and pressure to help the U.S. out with their project this all came from the designers lips in the documentary.
Geoff.
Posts: 894
By: Edgar Brooks - 19th August 2013 at 21:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
1923 Watson-Watt proves the concept, by pinpointing, at hundreds of miles range, the whereabouts of thunderstorms, enabling pilots to be warned.
But we gave them information that enabled the U-boats to be defeated, and ensured the success of the D-day invasion.
Whittle's (out of courtesy, do try to get a man's name correct) engine was obsolescent before the end of the war, since Metropolitan-Vickers engines, using axial-flow compressors designed (and worked on since 1936) by the RAE, had first flown in a modified Lancaster in mid-1943, so the Germans had little to do with it.
Posts: 222
By: Chris D - 19th August 2013 at 21:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here here Edgar..
Chris
Posts: 257
By: plough - 19th August 2013 at 22:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As compared with the unhealthy obsession that the USA has with the USA, as amply demonstrated by yourself.
Posts: 519
By: Deskpilot - 20th August 2013 at 00:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Americans said, "you show us yours, and we'll show you ours" Unfortunately, once they had British know-how, they reneged on the agreement. Typical bloody yanks. Never did, never will trust them.
Posts: 8,505
By: mike currill - 20th August 2013 at 15:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In addition to the last part of that post I would have to say that in my experience it still is, yet they are paranoid about the rest of the world seeing some of their technology which foreign intelligence knows more about than their own citizens.