By: EN830
- 23rd April 2005 at 23:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Whittles it down a bit more Geoff
New
Posts: 1,174
By: Swiss Mustangs
- 23rd April 2005 at 23:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I happen to have a number of sad photos of this particular Spitfire loss (copied from an ebay-auction about two years ago), some showing the dead pilot lying beside his plane. He never got out. Downed by flak.
'nuff said.
Martin
By: JDK
- 24th April 2005 at 01:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Pete,
I did a fair ammount of work with these type / size of pictures when I was helping people with family history research. If you scan at a high res, as Papa Lima suggested, you can then enlarge them a great deal on the computer, or print out at A4 size and you'll be amazed at the detail you can pick out which isn't visible on the original to the naked eye. Of course you can't post that res version here, but if it's interesting you can post a cropped area which is of particular interest.
Cheers!
By: Mark12
- 24th April 2005 at 08:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Mark, any idea if 64 Sqn were issued with any MkVa's ?
Ian,
In theory no, but stranger things have happened.
With the added evidence from Martin, and I too find have the ebay images at very low resolution, on balance I believe Mk II P7784 on 9th April 1941 is the most likely identity - evidence of the pilot's body in the wreck and being buried at Dunkirk etc. RIP.
Mark
New
Posts: 2,290
By: Pete Truman
- 24th April 2005 at 09:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm impressed with the research that you blokes are able to do, these pictures have been stored in a small leather album for 60 years, they've been a source of intrigue to me since I was a kid, there are some more in a box in the loft, including a portrait of a particularly evil looking Nazi.
What was the role of the Luftwaffe personel, were they responsible for airfield defence or did they form fighting units, I know they did later in the war, I have some Luftwaffe insignia that my father 'liberated' at the same time, whether they are off some of the characters in the pictures I wouldn't like to speculate.
By: EN830
- 24th April 2005 at 22:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just a thought, Pete, isn't there supposed to be a Polish BoB pilot living in Finchingfield?
Adrian
(If I haven't mentioned this before I grew up in Cornish Hall End, hence my interest in Finchingfield!)
As far as I am aware there is only one Polish BoB pilot left alive in the UK and he lives in Wimbledon, however I'm sure VoyTech will correct me on that if I'm wrong.
New
Posts: 2,290
By: Pete Truman
- 25th April 2005 at 18:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just a thought, Pete, isn't there supposed to be a Polish BoB pilot living in Finchingfield?
Adrian
(If I haven't mentioned this before I grew up in Cornish Hall End, hence my interest in Finchingfield!)
When did you leave Cornish Hall End?
I used to help out with the Scouts at the Rememberance Day ceremony and I don't recall any Polish vets, neither do I know of any Polish residents in the village. The local old boy who was the village historian has now left so I can't wander up the road and ask him.
There was a Danish wartime spy who lived in Swan House which links in with a possible connection.
In 1940 a German bomber attempting to flatten Courthalds in Bocking was intercepted by a Hurricane and shot down over Gainsford End, unfortunately the Hurricane succombed to return fire and came down near Little Bardfield, the pilot being killed. The German crew parachuted to safety and landed on our village green, the pilot hitting the war memorial, ironic, and breaking his legs, they were taken into Swan House for a cup of tea and the Danish spy acted as interpreter until the Army came from Dunmow and took them away.
I was going to say maybe the Hurricane pilot was Polish, but I have just been given some new information.
Incidentally Sir John Ruggles-Brise who still lives at Spains Hall, bless him, has shown me round the house a few times and has got a piston from the Hurricane displayed in the attic.
My missus just peered at what I was doing and informs me that the Polish pilot lives in a bungalow on Wethersfield Road, well he did 3 years ago.
She said that she got into conversation with him while taking the dog for a walk, she says he's a lovely old boy with a strong Polish accent and a Labrador dog, he told her that he'd been a pilot in the war and she said that we would have to be introduced. I must admit that I couldn't remember this occurance, but I was told!
I don't recall any obituries in our village magazine so watch this space.
Incidentally, how much do you know about the Wellington crash landing at Duck End and the Havoc exploding into the field near Spains Hall.
By: one0nine
- 26th April 2005 at 06:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Spitfire is indeed that of John Hampton Rowden (formerly of 616 and 64 Sqn), shot down by Josef Foezoe of JG51 near Mardyck, Belgium on 9 April 41. (Info from Dave Wadman)
This aircraft apparently came down near a flak battery, and was heavily photographed. There have been about a dozen photos of the unfortunate Mr. Rowden's body laying stretched out to port of the destroyed Spitfire. I've saved many of these to my hard drive, and in fact I sent a rather terse note to the Ebay seller of the first batch I saw, "der_foto_graf", indicating that rather than marketing them as "Super pics! Totlicher Feind beim Flugwrack!" or whatever crass description he gave it, perhaps he should've done just a SLIGHT bit of homework to identify the pilot and give this poor man the respect he deserves for having made the ultimate sacrifice for Crown and Country.
Sorry, that was a bit windy, but that guy really pi**ed me off when I read his descriptions. If anyone's interested in seeing the pics, I'll post them when I return home (I'm in Texas on a business trip presently). I've also got the serial number of the Spit at home as well... it was a Mk II, if memory serves.
By: adrian_gray
- 26th April 2005 at 12:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Pete,
I effectively left CHE in 1982, though my parents lived there until 1997. I was a cub there, but went to boarding school at 10 so never became a Finchingfield scout.
Sounds like I have muddled up a BoB and a WW2 pilot - easy mistake to make! I don't know him myself, just somehing I have a feeling crept in the Villager once.
I thought the incident where the Hurricane crashed at Little Bardfield (The Hydes) was one of the days that Debden was raided - 26th and 28th August 1940, I think. However I have no references to hand, so I couldn't tell you for sure. If the dates coincide, I wonder whether anyone anywhere knows the name of the injured airman - a now-dead relation captured two Germans at Great Sampford that day and I'd love to confirm who!
I am afraid I know nothing about a Wellington. However as a boy of 7 I was there when a Hurricane was dug out of a field near Spains Hall (just where the little kink is in the road with the spinneys on either side as you head from Spains Hall towards Howe Bottoms) - I have the Essex Aviation Archaeology Group's booklet from the days they were at Duxford which covers it. AFAIK the Havoc was dug out of a field at Mill End - below Spains Hall, at the bottom of the hill. I remember the day because it was pouring and Mum wouldn't let us go and have a look. As it happens, I don't think they found a lot - I think the sight was mostly cleared at the time. I have walked across both fields since and there is no sign on the surface.
Any help?
Adrian
New
Posts: 2,290
By: Pete Truman
- 26th April 2005 at 19:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Finchingfield crashes
I am afraid I know nothing about a Wellington. However as a boy of 7 I was there when a Hurricane was dug out of a field near Spains Hall (just where the little kink is in the road with the spinneys on either side as you head from Spains Hall towards Howe Bottoms) - I have the Essex Aviation Archaeology Group's booklet from the days they were at Duxford which covers it. AFAIK the Havoc was dug out of a field at Mill End - below Spains Hall, at the bottom of the hill. I remember the day because it was pouring and Mum wouldn't let us go and have a look. As it happens, I don't think they found a lot - I think the sight was mostly cleared at the time. I have walked across both fields since and there is no sign on the surface.
Any help?
Adrian[/QUOTE]
The old boy to talk to about all this is Ron Hawkins, unfortunately he now lives in Braintree and we've lost contact, he has meticulous records on everything. By coincidence I just walked in the door from work and picked up the latest edition of The Villager, I shall quote from an article entightled 'My life in Cornish Hall End' by Ray Cardy.
" During the late 1940's, one Sunday night, I was coming home from church when I heard this loud bang. Two English fighter planes had collided in mid-air. One fell at Spains End in a field called Mall Post, next to the farm, the other one at Mill Meadow , Great Sampford. The one in Mill Meadow was pulled out by the Air Ministry, but the one at Spains End is still there in the field to this day. This one fell in a lovely field of wheat. About a week or so after, I had to cut the wheat on a hot day and the smell was not very pleasant. Parts of the plane were spread all over the field."
What a coincidence.
The Havoc was on a mission from Wethersfield, with a full bomb load. One of the chefs from the base had stowed away to see what real action was all about. Unfortunately the aircraft lost power on take off and exploded on impact right where you said, there is evidence of a crater, only visible when the field has been ploughed, we did a survey with a metal detector last year and found quite a few fragments.
The Wellington was returning from a mission and got lost over the North Sea and started to run out of fuel. The pilot thought he was over Holland and attempted an emergency landing in a field at night. This entailed just missing Finchingfield church tower and coming in over Duck End, the aircraft landing up in a ditch next to the Folly Cottage on Stambourne Road. The crew hid in the ditch for hours, the army units sent to look for them being mistaken for German troops. Eventually they surrended to the great embarrasment of all concerned. The Wellington was recovered and I think taken back to Newmarket where it was repaired. I've been told that there are a few artifacts in this ditch perhaps I'll take the dogs for a walk up there now, they are getting very restless so I have to go.
By: adrian_gray
- 27th April 2005 at 17:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Small world! My parents lived next door to Ray Cardy's when I was growing up!
Dad saw the same two aircraft - Hurricanes - collide and spin in. The one at Gt Sampford came down two fields away from where he lives now - was excavated in about 1983. The other one as far as I know is undisturbed - the landowner won't have people digging holes in his field without making it (very) worth his while apparently. The pilots - two Kiwis - are buried at Saffron Walden Cemetery, just a few graves from M.H. D'avignon (?) who was killed in the one at Spains Hall.
I can't believe I'd never heard the tale of the Wellington before - I'll have to email it to Mum to pass on. I wonder whether they spotted the Dutch cottage (or Pepperpot cottage as I always knew it), and that's why they thought they were in Holland?
Posts: 1,442
By: von Perthes - 23rd April 2005 at 23:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ian,
According to 'SAW 3' MacDonnell baled out half way across the Channel.
P7784 was lost 9.4.41, at least acording to Air-Britain.
Geoff
Posts: 4,508
By: EN830 - 23rd April 2005 at 23:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Whittles it down a bit more Geoff
Posts: 1,174
By: Swiss Mustangs - 23rd April 2005 at 23:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I happen to have a number of sad photos of this particular Spitfire loss (copied from an ebay-auction about two years ago), some showing the dead pilot lying beside his plane. He never got out. Downed by flak.
'nuff said.
Martin
Posts: 10,029
By: Mark12 - 23rd April 2005 at 23:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Spitfire
Why could this photo not be a Spitfire Mk V up to Mid May 1942, perhaps even in Grey/Green?
64 Squadron were operating the Mk V, on and off, through to July 1944.
Mark
Posts: 7,755
By: Flood - 23rd April 2005 at 23:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Looks like that Do17 came through the trees...:confused:
Flood
Posts: 4,508
By: EN830 - 23rd April 2005 at 23:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I can't see any canons Mark, but there again who am I to disagree with such eminence.
It does look like an 'A' type wing though
Posts: 10,029
By: Mark12 - 23rd April 2005 at 23:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ian,
..and there were about 100 Mk V's produced with 'A' armament.
You may well be right but I would just widen the search a little if you don't find a candidate.
Mark.
Posts: 4,508
By: EN830 - 24th April 2005 at 00:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Mark, any idea if 64 Sqn were issued with any MkVa's ?
Posts: 8,195
By: JDK - 24th April 2005 at 01:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Pete,
I did a fair ammount of work with these type / size of pictures when I was helping people with family history research. If you scan at a high res, as Papa Lima suggested, you can then enlarge them a great deal on the computer, or print out at A4 size and you'll be amazed at the detail you can pick out which isn't visible on the original to the naked eye. Of course you can't post that res version here, but if it's interesting you can post a cropped area which is of particular interest.
Cheers!
Posts: 10,029
By: Mark12 - 24th April 2005 at 08:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ian,
In theory no, but stranger things have happened.
With the added evidence from Martin, and I too find have the ebay images at very low resolution, on balance I believe Mk II P7784 on 9th April 1941 is the most likely identity - evidence of the pilot's body in the wreck and being buried at Dunkirk etc. RIP.
Mark
Posts: 2,290
By: Pete Truman - 24th April 2005 at 09:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm impressed with the research that you blokes are able to do, these pictures have been stored in a small leather album for 60 years, they've been a source of intrigue to me since I was a kid, there are some more in a box in the loft, including a portrait of a particularly evil looking Nazi.
What was the role of the Luftwaffe personel, were they responsible for airfield defence or did they form fighting units, I know they did later in the war, I have some Luftwaffe insignia that my father 'liberated' at the same time, whether they are off some of the characters in the pictures I wouldn't like to speculate.
Posts: 3,231
By: adrian_gray - 24th April 2005 at 21:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just a thought, Pete, isn't there supposed to be a Polish BoB pilot living in Finchingfield?
Adrian
(If I haven't mentioned this before I grew up in Cornish Hall End, hence my interest in Finchingfield!)
Posts: 4,508
By: EN830 - 24th April 2005 at 22:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As far as I am aware there is only one Polish BoB pilot left alive in the UK and he lives in Wimbledon, however I'm sure VoyTech will correct me on that if I'm wrong.
Posts: 2,290
By: Pete Truman - 25th April 2005 at 18:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When did you leave Cornish Hall End?
I used to help out with the Scouts at the Rememberance Day ceremony and I don't recall any Polish vets, neither do I know of any Polish residents in the village. The local old boy who was the village historian has now left so I can't wander up the road and ask him.
There was a Danish wartime spy who lived in Swan House which links in with a possible connection.
In 1940 a German bomber attempting to flatten Courthalds in Bocking was intercepted by a Hurricane and shot down over Gainsford End, unfortunately the Hurricane succombed to return fire and came down near Little Bardfield, the pilot being killed. The German crew parachuted to safety and landed on our village green, the pilot hitting the war memorial, ironic, and breaking his legs, they were taken into Swan House for a cup of tea and the Danish spy acted as interpreter until the Army came from Dunmow and took them away.
I was going to say maybe the Hurricane pilot was Polish, but I have just been given some new information.
Incidentally Sir John Ruggles-Brise who still lives at Spains Hall, bless him, has shown me round the house a few times and has got a piston from the Hurricane displayed in the attic.
My missus just peered at what I was doing and informs me that the Polish pilot lives in a bungalow on Wethersfield Road, well he did 3 years ago.
She said that she got into conversation with him while taking the dog for a walk, she says he's a lovely old boy with a strong Polish accent and a Labrador dog, he told her that he'd been a pilot in the war and she said that we would have to be introduced. I must admit that I couldn't remember this occurance, but I was told!
I don't recall any obituries in our village magazine so watch this space.
Incidentally, how much do you know about the Wellington crash landing at Duck End and the Havoc exploding into the field near Spains Hall.
Posts: 4,508
By: EN830 - 25th April 2005 at 19:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Just done a search on Wethersfield Rd, Finchingfield. I can't see a Polish name, though he may not be listed on the electoral roll.
As far as I am aware the only surviving Polish BoB pilot left alive in the UK is Ludwig Matel, 54 and 603 Sqn.
Posts: 128
By: one0nine - 26th April 2005 at 06:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Spitfire is indeed that of John Hampton Rowden (formerly of 616 and 64 Sqn), shot down by Josef Foezoe of JG51 near Mardyck, Belgium on 9 April 41. (Info from Dave Wadman)
This aircraft apparently came down near a flak battery, and was heavily photographed. There have been about a dozen photos of the unfortunate Mr. Rowden's body laying stretched out to port of the destroyed Spitfire. I've saved many of these to my hard drive, and in fact I sent a rather terse note to the Ebay seller of the first batch I saw, "der_foto_graf", indicating that rather than marketing them as "Super pics! Totlicher Feind beim Flugwrack!" or whatever crass description he gave it, perhaps he should've done just a SLIGHT bit of homework to identify the pilot and give this poor man the respect he deserves for having made the ultimate sacrifice for Crown and Country.
Sorry, that was a bit windy, but that guy really pi**ed me off when I read his descriptions. If anyone's interested in seeing the pics, I'll post them when I return home (I'm in Texas on a business trip presently). I've also got the serial number of the Spit at home as well... it was a Mk II, if memory serves.
Lynn
Posts: 4,508
By: EN830 - 26th April 2005 at 12:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not too sure about the pictures of the unfortunate chap being posted on the forum. not something I would relish seeing.
Posts: 3,231
By: adrian_gray - 26th April 2005 at 12:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Pete,
I effectively left CHE in 1982, though my parents lived there until 1997. I was a cub there, but went to boarding school at 10 so never became a Finchingfield scout.
Sounds like I have muddled up a BoB and a WW2 pilot - easy mistake to make! I don't know him myself, just somehing I have a feeling crept in the Villager once.
I thought the incident where the Hurricane crashed at Little Bardfield (The Hydes) was one of the days that Debden was raided - 26th and 28th August 1940, I think. However I have no references to hand, so I couldn't tell you for sure. If the dates coincide, I wonder whether anyone anywhere knows the name of the injured airman - a now-dead relation captured two Germans at Great Sampford that day and I'd love to confirm who!
I am afraid I know nothing about a Wellington. However as a boy of 7 I was there when a Hurricane was dug out of a field near Spains Hall (just where the little kink is in the road with the spinneys on either side as you head from Spains Hall towards Howe Bottoms) - I have the Essex Aviation Archaeology Group's booklet from the days they were at Duxford which covers it. AFAIK the Havoc was dug out of a field at Mill End - below Spains Hall, at the bottom of the hill. I remember the day because it was pouring and Mum wouldn't let us go and have a look. As it happens, I don't think they found a lot - I think the sight was mostly cleared at the time. I have walked across both fields since and there is no sign on the surface.
Any help?
Adrian
Posts: 2,290
By: Pete Truman - 26th April 2005 at 19:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Finchingfield crashes
I am afraid I know nothing about a Wellington. However as a boy of 7 I was there when a Hurricane was dug out of a field near Spains Hall (just where the little kink is in the road with the spinneys on either side as you head from Spains Hall towards Howe Bottoms) - I have the Essex Aviation Archaeology Group's booklet from the days they were at Duxford which covers it. AFAIK the Havoc was dug out of a field at Mill End - below Spains Hall, at the bottom of the hill. I remember the day because it was pouring and Mum wouldn't let us go and have a look. As it happens, I don't think they found a lot - I think the sight was mostly cleared at the time. I have walked across both fields since and there is no sign on the surface.
Any help?
Adrian[/QUOTE]
The old boy to talk to about all this is Ron Hawkins, unfortunately he now lives in Braintree and we've lost contact, he has meticulous records on everything. By coincidence I just walked in the door from work and picked up the latest edition of The Villager, I shall quote from an article entightled 'My life in Cornish Hall End' by Ray Cardy.
" During the late 1940's, one Sunday night, I was coming home from church when I heard this loud bang. Two English fighter planes had collided in mid-air. One fell at Spains End in a field called Mall Post, next to the farm, the other one at Mill Meadow , Great Sampford. The one in Mill Meadow was pulled out by the Air Ministry, but the one at Spains End is still there in the field to this day. This one fell in a lovely field of wheat. About a week or so after, I had to cut the wheat on a hot day and the smell was not very pleasant. Parts of the plane were spread all over the field."
What a coincidence.
The Havoc was on a mission from Wethersfield, with a full bomb load. One of the chefs from the base had stowed away to see what real action was all about. Unfortunately the aircraft lost power on take off and exploded on impact right where you said, there is evidence of a crater, only visible when the field has been ploughed, we did a survey with a metal detector last year and found quite a few fragments.
The Wellington was returning from a mission and got lost over the North Sea and started to run out of fuel. The pilot thought he was over Holland and attempted an emergency landing in a field at night. This entailed just missing Finchingfield church tower and coming in over Duck End, the aircraft landing up in a ditch next to the Folly Cottage on Stambourne Road. The crew hid in the ditch for hours, the army units sent to look for them being mistaken for German troops. Eventually they surrended to the great embarrasment of all concerned. The Wellington was recovered and I think taken back to Newmarket where it was repaired. I've been told that there are a few artifacts in this ditch perhaps I'll take the dogs for a walk up there now, they are getting very restless so I have to go.
Posts: 3,231
By: adrian_gray - 27th April 2005 at 17:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Small world! My parents lived next door to Ray Cardy's when I was growing up!
Dad saw the same two aircraft - Hurricanes - collide and spin in. The one at Gt Sampford came down two fields away from where he lives now - was excavated in about 1983. The other one as far as I know is undisturbed - the landowner won't have people digging holes in his field without making it (very) worth his while apparently. The pilots - two Kiwis - are buried at Saffron Walden Cemetery, just a few graves from M.H. D'avignon (?) who was killed in the one at Spains Hall.
I can't believe I'd never heard the tale of the Wellington before - I'll have to email it to Mum to pass on. I wonder whether they spotted the Dutch cottage (or Pepperpot cottage as I always knew it), and that's why they thought they were in Holland?
Adrian