By: TEXANTOMCAT
- 2nd April 2019 at 15:48Permalink
Before his sad passing Paul Morgan was engineering solutions to make a Merlin run more efficiently and to begin production of new parts. He was also fascinated by the Centaurus and IIRC had already begun machining new sleeves in modern metal with a view to improving reliability.
By: Creaking Door
- 2nd April 2019 at 16:16Permalink
And if anybody had the facilities and knowledge to produce modern replacement parts, or even improved replacement parts, it was Paul Morgan; such a tragic irony, the nature of his passing.
By: topspeed
- 3rd April 2019 at 09:59Permalink- Edited 3rd April 2019 at 11:05
If anyone has read the true history of the R-3350 -57 AM they will know that the issues suffered by the first of the mass-produced Sabres were nothing in comparison. The R-3350 almost bought the entire B29 project to a grinding halt, and indeed even as last as August 1945 Colonel Paul Tibbets refused to fly the Atomic mission unless his aircraft was equipped with specially modified engines. The Sabre once they understood how to manufacture the sleeves correctly only needed to be managed correctly, a task a few courts martial soon sorted out. A family friend flew some 60 missions from the Normandy beach heads and beyond without an abort, hardly the record of a poor engine.
Yes true...you'd be able to do it only if there was a need for upgraded Napier Sabre for instance for caterpillars etc.
[ATTACH=JSON]{"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\tnapier-heston_racer.jpg?VziO3KZaaqWRmzTdvXHsYnFU49XQAnl3&itok=EyLgtYpJ.jpg Views:\t0 Size:\t11.0 KB ID:\t3858303","data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"3858303","data-size":"full","title":"Heston J.5"}[/ATTACH]
Napiers eventually overcame the shortcoming of their engine sleeves by using the Bristol Engines' method of manufacture. This was to centrifugally cast and then satin hone them to precise tolerances afterwards - a method/process handed over by Bristol to Napier's as a goodwill gesture. There was a war on after all.
Bristol's had ploughed huge resources into perfecting the mass-production of the sleeve, this being crucial to the production, or not, of a reliable power plant (they built Hercules, Perseus, Taurus and Centaurus sleeve valve engines during the war). It is worth pointing out that the sleeve valve was, in many ways, far better than the poppet valve and seen as many as the way forward as piston engines output increased more and more.
The sleeve valve was far more tolerant of back-pressure (such as would have occurred with a turbocharger, though here in the UK we chose not to go down that path for larger engines) and it led, with the Hercules 264 in the Varsity, to the longest overhaul life of any piston engine produced before or since - typically 3000 hours.
Properly appraised and managed, there is no reason why the sabre cannot be a good and reliable power plant in a restoration. Its early troubles gave it an undeservedly poor reputation but, in the end, with all the bugs ironed out, it was one of the finest high-power piston engines in service.
With its continued use after the war and very limited application I'm always surprised that there aren't far more Sabre engines around than there are. Perhaps it was its large and compact size that made it such a good candidate for the scrapman's beady eye?
By: Graham Boak
- 3rd April 2019 at 15:57Permalink
Not that much of a goodwill gesture: as I understood it there was need for considerable compulsion by the Ministry/government before they gave any assistance whatsoever to a rival.
By: Flat 12x2
- 10th August 2019 at 18:05Permalink
Not that much of a goodwill gesture: as I understood it there was need for considerable compulsion by the Ministry/government before they gave any assistance whatsoever to a rival.
From what I can remember, the compulsion was regarding NOT getting certain upcoming/further contracts if they didn't help Napier, so much for all pulling together for the war effort
I think the definitive account about the solution of the Sabre sleeve production issues is available in the book, I KEPT NO DIARY by Rod Banks, an incredible book! He gives considerable insight on this, and many other topics. Very well worth reading!
Hi Ben,
This actual manual belongs to the Aviation Heritage Museum in Perth, Western Australia. I have talked with the manager of the museum and he wonders are there any people out there that would want a copy and how much would they pay for these copies as they are a private museum and any revenue goes to keeping it going. I see windhover has replied with a page of information about the engine. So maybe there are other manuals or an outlet that you can get this Air Publication 1810A Volume 1 from free. So again if there is nothing else out there, how much would be reasonable to pay for a copy + postage
New
Posts: 1
By: gkgharris
- 25th October 2021 at 12:22Permalink
Hi all.
I know this thread is some years old now but I am trying to collect information on the Napier Sabre engine. I am a member of AEHS which is a great source of information on Aero Engines.
I would be very interested in getting a copy of the Sabre engine manual that is shown on this thread.
I think if the museum scanned it in high resolution there would be a demand for PDF format copies. In this format there would be no need for post.
I would be grateful if someone could get back to me on this.
Posts: 4,561
By: TEXANTOMCAT - 2nd April 2019 at 15:48 Permalink
Before his sad passing Paul Morgan was engineering solutions to make a Merlin run more efficiently and to begin production of new parts. He was also fascinated by the Centaurus and IIRC had already begun machining new sleeves in modern metal with a view to improving reliability.
TT
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 2nd April 2019 at 16:16 Permalink
And if anybody had the facilities and knowledge to produce modern replacement parts, or even improved replacement parts, it was Paul Morgan; such a tragic irony, the nature of his passing.
Posts: 4,561
By: TEXANTOMCAT - 2nd April 2019 at 16:42 Permalink
Quite so - I think his next machine was going to be an A-26. Lovely bloke much missed. TT
Posts: 2,619
By: topspeed - 3rd April 2019 at 09:59 Permalink - Edited 3rd April 2019 at 11:05
Yes true...you'd be able to do it only if there was a need for upgraded Napier Sabre for instance for caterpillars etc.
[ATTACH=JSON]{"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\tnapier-heston_racer.jpg?VziO3KZaaqWRmzTdvXHsYnFU49XQAnl3&itok=EyLgtYpJ.jpg Views:\t0 Size:\t11.0 KB ID:\t3858303","data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"3858303","data-size":"full","title":"Heston J.5"}[/ATTACH]
Posts: 2,841
By: Anon - 3rd April 2019 at 12:30 Permalink
Napiers eventually overcame the shortcoming of their engine sleeves by using the Bristol Engines' method of manufacture. This was to centrifugally cast and then satin hone them to precise tolerances afterwards - a method/process handed over by Bristol to Napier's as a goodwill gesture. There was a war on after all.
Bristol's had ploughed huge resources into perfecting the mass-production of the sleeve, this being crucial to the production, or not, of a reliable power plant (they built Hercules, Perseus, Taurus and Centaurus sleeve valve engines during the war). It is worth pointing out that the sleeve valve was, in many ways, far better than the poppet valve and seen as many as the way forward as piston engines output increased more and more.
The sleeve valve was far more tolerant of back-pressure (such as would have occurred with a turbocharger, though here in the UK we chose not to go down that path for larger engines) and it led, with the Hercules 264 in the Varsity, to the longest overhaul life of any piston engine produced before or since - typically 3000 hours.
Properly appraised and managed, there is no reason why the sabre cannot be a good and reliable power plant in a restoration. Its early troubles gave it an undeservedly poor reputation but, in the end, with all the bugs ironed out, it was one of the finest high-power piston engines in service.
With its continued use after the war and very limited application I'm always surprised that there aren't far more Sabre engines around than there are. Perhaps it was its large and compact size that made it such a good candidate for the scrapman's beady eye?
Anon.
Posts: 957
By: Graham Boak - 3rd April 2019 at 15:57 Permalink
Not that much of a goodwill gesture: as I understood it there was need for considerable compulsion by the Ministry/government before they gave any assistance whatsoever to a rival.
Posts: 504
By: Flat 12x2 - 10th August 2019 at 18:05 Permalink
From what I can remember, the compulsion was regarding NOT getting certain upcoming/further contracts if they didn't help Napier, so much for all pulling together for the war effort
Posts: 105
By: DADE - 11th August 2019 at 09:45 Permalink
Posts: 2,605
By: QldSpitty - 11th August 2019 at 10:03 Permalink
Not a Napier but you can see the technology taking root..
https://oldschool.co.nz/index.php?/topic/53938-bugatti-t5759-engine-project/#entry1752201
Posts: 55
By: Vintage - 11th August 2019 at 10:15 Permalink
I think the definitive account about the solution of the Sabre sleeve production issues is available in the book, I KEPT NO DIARY by Rod Banks, an incredible book! He gives considerable insight on this, and many other topics. Very well worth reading!
V
Posts: 105
By: DADE - 11th August 2019 at 10:39 Permalink
Posts: 5
By: Ben Arthurs - 11th August 2019 at 16:01 Permalink
DADE , Thank you for sharing those fab looking drawings , Are prints or copies of that manual available anywhere ?
Posts: 105
By: DADE - 12th August 2019 at 04:32 Permalink
Hi Ben,
This actual manual belongs to the Aviation Heritage Museum in Perth, Western Australia. I have talked with the manager of the museum and he wonders are there any people out there that would want a copy and how much would they pay for these copies as they are a private museum and any revenue goes to keeping it going. I see windhover has replied with a page of information about the engine. So maybe there are other manuals or an outlet that you can get this Air Publication 1810A Volume 1 from free. So again if there is nothing else out there, how much would be reasonable to pay for a copy + postage
Posts: 1
By: gkgharris - 25th October 2021 at 12:22 Permalink
Hi all.
I know this thread is some years old now but I am trying to collect information on the Napier Sabre engine. I am a member of AEHS which is a great source of information on Aero Engines.
I would be very interested in getting a copy of the Sabre engine manual that is shown on this thread.
I think if the museum scanned it in high resolution there would be a demand for PDF format copies. In this format there would be no need for post.
I would be grateful if someone could get back to me on this.
Best regards, Geoff