By: jeepman
- 6th January 2016 at 13:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
....... now like DX based EP120 and BM597 before it, and I don't remember any complaints there, .
Why would there be - the deal included the receipt of airframes from MARC to fill gaps in the RAFM collection. The Sahara P40 deal resulted in................fresh air (and perhaps not even that)
By: Junk Collector
- 6th January 2016 at 13:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's a shame. The Americans will probably restore it to flight and lose all historical integrity, rather than conserve a WW2 time capsule.
That is the usual case.
If someone wants a flying example as a memorial etc, then just paint one of the existing fliers up in the same markings, by the end of a restoration there won't be a lot of difference between the two
By: Bruce
- 6th January 2016 at 14:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Setting to one side - with some difficulty - the emotional connection with F/Sgt. Denis Copping, which, in this particular instance, might make all the difference, none whatsoever. Stephen Grey's P40 would perfectly represent the period of history in question during WW2, and because it is an 'alive' artefact would convey that connection to hundreds of thousands of people present at numerous aerial displays up and down the country.
Precisely - so, as there are already aircraft available that could provide the same connection to the Desert RAF, and to Denis Copping in particular, there is no need to restore this one.
By: Bruce
- 6th January 2016 at 14:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why would there be - the deal included the receipt of airframes from MARC to fill gaps in the RAFM collection. The Sahara P40 deal resulted in................fresh air (and perhaps not even that)
Actually, I do recall some grumbles at the time - as the value of the restored Spitfires were being equated to the value of the airframes received for RAFM. Clearly, a comparison that should not have been made. As Mk12 indicated, PK664 is not in the best of states, and is missing a large number of high value items. It was, incidentally, the first airframe to be inspected by Tim Routsis and his team before setting up Historic Flying, and having done so, he came close to giving up his dream on the spot. 'They are all like this', he was told. Fortunately, that proved not to be the case.
By: jeepman
- 6th January 2016 at 15:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Actually, I do recall some grumbles at the time - as the value of the restored Spitfires were being equated to the value of the airframes received for RAFM. Clearly, a comparison that should not have been made. As Mk12 indicated, PK664 is not in the best of states, and is missing a large number of high value items. It was, incidentally, the first airframe to be inspected by Tim Routsis and his team before setting up Historic Flying, and having done so, he came close to giving up his dream on the spot. 'They are all like this', he was told. Fortunately, that proved not to be the case.
Bruce (and Peter A) please don't get me wrong - I'm not getting exercised on the use of PK664 (or any other spare/surplus Spitfire airframe to be honest) as currency - simply the use of an/any asset with some value (however diminished) in a deal that ultimately seems to deliver nothing. There is a difference.
If the RAFM is as bereft of funds as it seems to be - then with the best will in the world it surely shouldn't have been chancing (or even allowed to chance - where are the checks and balances - ie role of the Trustees - in this sorry tale???) it's limited tradeable assets on a deal that wasn't focussed enough to actually deliver an airframe to the converted art gallery at the top of the stairs in Hendon.
By: Lysanderlover
- 6th January 2016 at 15:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If the Copping aircraft has indeed 'flown the coop', one would hope that the RAFM will redouble their efforts to obtain a proper P-40 for exhibition at Hendon. The gutted aircraft currently displayed is surely an embarrassment and not of the calibre of artifact that should be presented to the public.
By: TonyL1962
- 6th January 2016 at 16:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Couple of things...
1. Moggy - does your information about the aircraft being in the US come from any sort of reliable source? Or are you yourself just fishing?
2. Mark12 - you suggest that you have a source that placed the container in Egypt within the time it would take to get it to the US by sea - how reliable is this source?
3. In my opinion this aircraft should not leave Egypt and should go to the museum at El Alamein. A far more fitting and poignant location than either the RAF museum or the US. It would almost certainly cost less to create a small building to house it there than to ship it out of the country.
By: Moggy C
- 6th January 2016 at 16:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Couple of things...
1. Moggy - does your information about the aircraft being in the US come from any sort of reliable source? Or are you yourself just fishing?
Tony, I have no particular special interest in this topic whilst I do have an interest in keeping this forum quiet. peaceful and free of disruptive discussions, so you can rule out any piscatorial motive.
The story reached me third hand so is effectively hearsay - strangely reminiscent of stories about subterranean fighters.
Hence you see why I was at pains to stress "unsubstantiated"
Moggy
IMHO: The discussion about possible futures for the aircraft should it eventually emerge is far more interesting than any further speculation on the location of the container. Just accept it for the rumour it si for now would be my advice.
By: Thunderbird167
- 6th January 2016 at 16:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In my opinion, the RAF Museum was in a no win situation with regards to the Copping P40 from when it was discovered.
They could have simply expressed no interest in the aircraft as they were already financially committed with other projects.
They were not to know or could have predicted the Arab Spring and its consequences.
We would all be applauding their actions if the aircraft had arrived in the UK as planned but plans can go wrong and I think as a community we have become a little carried away with the perceived value of unrestored incomplete Spitfires.
Let us not forget that some bold and expensive decisions were taken under the previous director
These include the purchase of the Bristol Brigand, the move by road of the Nimrod and VC-10 to Cosford and the Dornier recovery all of which I believe the previous administration would have not contemplated
Not all deals go as planned, are we any nearer seeing the arrival of the Havoc which I believe was part of the previous Spitfire swap ?
By: John Green
- 6th January 2016 at 17:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Precisely - so, as there are already aircraft available that could provide the same connection to the Desert RAF, and to Denis Copping in particular, there is no need to restore this one.
Except for my original point and the theme of my comments, which many conveniently overlook. If an aircraft can be flown, then fly it, don't bury it in yet another dessicated museum where by its passivity, it fails utterly to provoke the imagination. How can it, in comparison with the sight and sound of a live aeroplane thundering along the flightline ?
Whether one has just one or fifty flying examples matters not. What is important is that they are flying, in full view of the hundreds of thousands who make up the spectator numbers at displays. Thus, in all their incomparable beauty, they are exhibited for the greater good. Now tell me that that is a bad thing.
By: Southern Air99
- 6th January 2016 at 17:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
' it fails utterly to provoke the imagination. How can it, in comparison with the sight and sound of a live aeroplane thundering along the flightline ?'
I beg to differ slightly. Yes. 'live' aircraft 'thundering along the flightline' are stunning and very exciting for many including myself, I love seeing airshows and displays. However in it's current state it is my opinion it would be more hard hitting and representative of the sacrifice of a war which although decades ago must be remembered by not just 'us' but also generations to come
By: David Burke
- 6th January 2016 at 17:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Arab Spring started in 2011 and by the time the P-40 was discovered there was a government in place . That government was deposed in 2013 . So whilst the recovery happened in 2012 - there is little documentation so far that suggests that ownership was transfered in any way in 2012.
By: Mark12
- 6th January 2016 at 17:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for that Mark12. I'd be very interested to know your estimation of the value of the exchanged Spitfire. I'd also be very interested to see the costings of the recovery, although I doubt they will be available. Funny that. I would be very interested to compare the two, because I cannot see how they would be comparable.
Can you add any more facts please?
I am sure you would be 'interested'...sorry but you will just have to take my word for it.
By: TonyL1962
- 6th January 2016 at 18:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As safe as any other Egyptian historical artifact - and despite government changes the Egyptians do value their historical stuff and many of them rely on the income from tourists. There's already a spitfire at Alamein that has not been stolen or sold for a data plate rebuild!
By: DaveF68
- 6th January 2016 at 19:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have no objection to the RAFM swapping a Spitfire for the services rendered to retreive the P-40 from the Desert (In the past, RAF crash and smash would probably have done it, but that would not have been possible politically here even if the service was still available to RAFM).
Where it seems criticism can be made is in not securing that they then had title to the P-40 - at the very least it would then mean that they would have a legal claim to title if the P-40 was then sold on to someone else.
By: trumper
- 6th January 2016 at 19:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As safe as any other Egyptian historical artifact - and despite government changes the Egyptians do value their historical stuff and many of them rely on the income from tourists. There's already a spitfire at Alamein that has not been stolen or sold for a data plate rebuild!
So did some of the other middle Eastern countries but look at them now being blown up ,destroyed.Income from tourists may and will be dropping big time from alot of the tourist countries i'm afraid.
Posts: 1,988
By: jeepman - 6th January 2016 at 13:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why would there be - the deal included the receipt of airframes from MARC to fill gaps in the RAFM collection. The Sahara P40 deal resulted in................fresh air (and perhaps not even that)
Posts: 1,444
By: Junk Collector - 6th January 2016 at 13:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That is the usual case.
If someone wants a flying example as a memorial etc, then just paint one of the existing fliers up in the same markings, by the end of a restoration there won't be a lot of difference between the two
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 6th January 2016 at 14:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Precisely - so, as there are already aircraft available that could provide the same connection to the Desert RAF, and to Denis Copping in particular, there is no need to restore this one.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 6th January 2016 at 14:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Actually, I do recall some grumbles at the time - as the value of the restored Spitfires were being equated to the value of the airframes received for RAFM. Clearly, a comparison that should not have been made. As Mk12 indicated, PK664 is not in the best of states, and is missing a large number of high value items. It was, incidentally, the first airframe to be inspected by Tim Routsis and his team before setting up Historic Flying, and having done so, he came close to giving up his dream on the spot. 'They are all like this', he was told. Fortunately, that proved not to be the case.
Posts: 1,988
By: jeepman - 6th January 2016 at 15:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Bruce (and Peter A) please don't get me wrong - I'm not getting exercised on the use of PK664 (or any other spare/surplus Spitfire airframe to be honest) as currency - simply the use of an/any asset with some value (however diminished) in a deal that ultimately seems to deliver nothing. There is a difference.
If the RAFM is as bereft of funds as it seems to be - then with the best will in the world it surely shouldn't have been chancing (or even allowed to chance - where are the checks and balances - ie role of the Trustees - in this sorry tale???) it's limited tradeable assets on a deal that wasn't focussed enough to actually deliver an airframe to the converted art gallery at the top of the stairs in Hendon.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 6th January 2016 at 15:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And as I say - did anyone expect regime change in Egypt, having negotiated in good faith for the aircraft?
Posts: 86
By: Lysanderlover - 6th January 2016 at 15:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If the Copping aircraft has indeed 'flown the coop', one would hope that the RAFM will redouble their efforts to obtain a proper P-40 for exhibition at Hendon. The gutted aircraft currently displayed is surely an embarrassment and not of the calibre of artifact that should be presented to the public.
Posts: 1,988
By: jeepman - 6th January 2016 at 16:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It seems so..........................
http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/publications/paul_rogers_monthly_global_security_briefings/after_egypt
but geopolitics are way beyond the scope of this discussion
Posts: 83
By: TonyL1962 - 6th January 2016 at 16:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Couple of things...
1. Moggy - does your information about the aircraft being in the US come from any sort of reliable source? Or are you yourself just fishing?
2. Mark12 - you suggest that you have a source that placed the container in Egypt within the time it would take to get it to the US by sea - how reliable is this source?
3. In my opinion this aircraft should not leave Egypt and should go to the museum at El Alamein. A far more fitting and poignant location than either the RAF museum or the US. It would almost certainly cost less to create a small building to house it there than to ship it out of the country.
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 6th January 2016 at 16:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Tony, I have no particular special interest in this topic whilst I do have an interest in keeping this forum quiet. peaceful and free of disruptive discussions, so you can rule out any piscatorial motive.
The story reached me third hand so is effectively hearsay - strangely reminiscent of stories about subterranean fighters.
Hence you see why I was at pains to stress "unsubstantiated"
Moggy
IMHO: The discussion about possible futures for the aircraft should it eventually emerge is far more interesting than any further speculation on the location of the container. Just accept it for the rumour it si for now would be my advice.
Posts: 83
By: TonyL1962 - 6th January 2016 at 16:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Understood Moggy. It would be a sad state of things if has been spirited off out of Egypt.
The Alamein memorial is of course where Dennis Copping is remembered. It would perhaps be most appropriate to display his aircraft there.
Posts: 993
By: Thunderbird167 - 6th January 2016 at 16:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In my opinion, the RAF Museum was in a no win situation with regards to the Copping P40 from when it was discovered.
They could have simply expressed no interest in the aircraft as they were already financially committed with other projects.
They were not to know or could have predicted the Arab Spring and its consequences.
We would all be applauding their actions if the aircraft had arrived in the UK as planned but plans can go wrong and I think as a community we have become a little carried away with the perceived value of unrestored incomplete Spitfires.
Let us not forget that some bold and expensive decisions were taken under the previous director
These include the purchase of the Bristol Brigand, the move by road of the Nimrod and VC-10 to Cosford and the Dornier recovery all of which I believe the previous administration would have not contemplated
Not all deals go as planned, are we any nearer seeing the arrival of the Havoc which I believe was part of the previous Spitfire swap ?
Time to move on
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 6th January 2016 at 17:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Except for my original point and the theme of my comments, which many conveniently overlook. If an aircraft can be flown, then fly it, don't bury it in yet another dessicated museum where by its passivity, it fails utterly to provoke the imagination. How can it, in comparison with the sight and sound of a live aeroplane thundering along the flightline ?
Whether one has just one or fifty flying examples matters not. What is important is that they are flying, in full view of the hundreds of thousands who make up the spectator numbers at displays. Thus, in all their incomparable beauty, they are exhibited for the greater good. Now tell me that that is a bad thing.
Posts: 544
By: Southern Air99 - 6th January 2016 at 17:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
' it fails utterly to provoke the imagination. How can it, in comparison with the sight and sound of a live aeroplane thundering along the flightline ?'
I beg to differ slightly. Yes. 'live' aircraft 'thundering along the flightline' are stunning and very exciting for many including myself, I love seeing airshows and displays. However in it's current state it is my opinion it would be more hard hitting and representative of the sacrifice of a war which although decades ago must be remembered by not just 'us' but also generations to come
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 6th January 2016 at 17:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Arab Spring started in 2011 and by the time the P-40 was discovered there was a government in place . That government was deposed in 2013 . So whilst the recovery happened in 2012 - there is little documentation so far that suggests that ownership was transfered in any way in 2012.
Posts: 10,029
By: Mark12 - 6th January 2016 at 17:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I am sure you would be 'interested'...sorry but you will just have to take my word for it.
PM sent.
Mark
.
Posts: 7,068
By: trumper - 6th January 2016 at 18:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How safe would it be there in this political climate?
Posts: 83
By: TonyL1962 - 6th January 2016 at 18:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As safe as any other Egyptian historical artifact - and despite government changes the Egyptians do value their historical stuff and many of them rely on the income from tourists. There's already a spitfire at Alamein that has not been stolen or sold for a data plate rebuild!
Posts: 1,777
By: DaveF68 - 6th January 2016 at 19:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have no objection to the RAFM swapping a Spitfire for the services rendered to retreive the P-40 from the Desert (In the past, RAF crash and smash would probably have done it, but that would not have been possible politically here even if the service was still available to RAFM).
Where it seems criticism can be made is in not securing that they then had title to the P-40 - at the very least it would then mean that they would have a legal claim to title if the P-40 was then sold on to someone else.
Posts: 7,068
By: trumper - 6th January 2016 at 19:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So did some of the other middle Eastern countries but look at them now being blown up ,destroyed.Income from tourists may and will be dropping big time from alot of the tourist countries i'm afraid.